Furious Focus not Recognized

[Ballto]

I'm new to Hero Lab, so maybe I did something wrong, but as I see it now, Furious Focus isn't recognized in Hero Lab. Even when I turn on Power Attack, it still just shows the same penalty.

 

[Aaron]

That is working as intended, since furious focus doesn't affect later attacks including Attacks of Opportunity.

 

[Ballto]

That is working as intended, since furious focus doesn't affect later attacks including Attacks of Opportunity.

But even on my 4th level fighter, (So only singular attack) when I activate Power attack, there is no option to turn on Furious Focus, and it still adds the -2 penalty to my attack for using it.

Unless I'm somehow using it wrong?

 

[ShadowChemosh]

But even on my 4th level fighter, (So only singular attack) when I activate Power attack, there is no option to turn on Furious Focus, and it still adds the -2 penalty to my attack for using it.

Unless I'm somehow using it wrong?

This is been asked many times and LW won't change this. They have a point as its something that will affect AoO's so its really a "situational" bonus not a "all" the time bonus.

If its bothering you put in an adjustment on the "Adjust" tab to give a +2 bonus back.

 

[Ualaa]

Shadow Chemosh's adjustment thing lets you add 'Situational Attack modifiers', so you can list Furious Focus as the source, and give a +x bonus in the other field.
Then when you mouse over the attack, it will say +'x' with whatever text you entered.

For example, "+2 first attack" from Furious Focus.

 

[Kronicarn88]

I think Herolab does actually calculate it correctly, but you have to make sure you are using a 2 handed weapon or making sure your one handed weapon is selected as being held in two hands. Because the bonus wont apply if you are just using a one handed weapon in one hand.

If you are then what everyone else said, you will have to just remember or add an adjustment.

 

[Jamz]

That is working as intended, since furious focus doesn't affect later attacks including Attacks of Opportunity.

Aaron, not to beat a dead horse but...By that logic you should not apply the penalties for Two-Weapon fighting either.

Why not a second checkbox and let us turn it on/off (like smite) OR give us a separate AOO line/printout with to-hit/damage for AOO. I would love it for my Ninja who probably always forgets to add the +2 back in for AOO's.

FAQ:
"Two-Weapon Fighting: If you use this on your turn to attack with two weapons, do you also take that penalty on attacks of opportunity made before the start of your next turn?"

"The penalties end as soon as you have completed the full-attack action that allowed you to attack with both weapons. Any attacks of opportunity you make are at your normal attack bonus."

 

[Dwayne]

Aaron, not to beat a dead horse but...By that logic you should not apply the penalties for Two-Weapon fighting either.

Why not a second checkbox and let us turn it on/off (like smite) OR give us a separate AOO line/printout with to-hit/damage for AOO. I would love it for my Ninja who probably always forgets to add the +2 back in for AOO's.

FAQ:
"Two-Weapon Fighting: If you use this on your turn to attack with two weapons, do you also take that penalty on attacks of opportunity made before the start of your next turn?"

"The penalties end as soon as you have completed the full-attack action that allowed you to attack with both weapons. Any attacks of opportunity you make are at your normal attack bonus."

Agree. I hope they listen.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Aaron, not to beat a dead horse but...By that logic you should not apply the penalties for Two-Weapon fighting either.

Why not a second checkbox and let us turn it on/off (like smite) OR give us a separate AOO line/printout with to-hit/damage for AOO. I would love it for my Ninja who probably always forgets to add the +2 back in for AOO's.

Go to the "Adjust" tab and either put in a adjustment to give a +2 bonus to your weapon. Or use the adjustment "Attack Bonus Situational" to put in a situational note about the bonus.

Both of these you can do right now without waiting for LW or even a community fix.

 

[Jamz]

True, but I kinda don't like the */Situational bonuses because I use a Microsoft Surface Pro at the table, which is a touch screen, which HeroLab wasn't designed for. In other words, you don't really get "hover" events with a touch screen and gotta tap everywhere (and as a side matter it's impossible to "scroll" the overflow text on those popups too.

THAT aside, I'd RATHER have a "situational" penalty for AOO's as they happen a WHOLE lot less than your Primary attack.

Another point, (and I just thought of this so it may be wrong) but couldn't your "First" attack BE an AOO?

1. I roll init and loose to Bad Guy #1.
2. It's the second round of combat, only movement taken, no one is now flatfooted.
3. Bad Guy #1 moves past me provoking an AOO, I swing away with power attack, wouldn't Furious Focus apply to this attack, being the first attack this round?

How about a +16(+14)/9 notation, or for TWF +14(+16)/9 denoting your full BAB in ()'s to be used where appropriate?

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Another point, (and I just thought of this so it may be wrong) but couldn't your "First" attack BE an AOO?

1. I roll init and loose to Bad Guy #1.
2. It's the second round of combat, only movement taken, no one is now flatfooted.
3. Bad Guy #1 moves past me provoking an AOO, I swing away with power attack, wouldn't Furious Focus apply to this attack, being the first attack this round?

Basically no. The feat says:

you do not suffer Power Attack’s penalty on melee attack rolls on the first attack you make each turn.

Your first attack in the "turn" means the first attack when making a standard action or full-attack action. Based off the fact of the definition of what a "turn" is

"Turn: In a round, a creature receives one turn, during which it can perform a wide variety of actions. Generally in the course of one turn, a character can perform one standard action, one move action, one swift action, and a number of free actions. Less-common combination's of actions are permissible as well, see Combat for more details."

But you would be better off asking such a rule question at Paizo and then you could attempt to get it FAQ flagged and officially answered. But that is how I read the feat.

The only "community" thing I can do is the same I did for Power Attack and paper character sheets. I can do the same thing so that your Furious Focus attack value is displayed on a selected weapon. That was my plan for the next release in the Basic Pack.

 

[Jamz]

Basically no. The feat says:

Your first attack in the "turn" means the first attack when making a standard action or full-attack action...

I would have to disagree. The full text is:
"Benefit: When you are wielding a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon with two hands, and using the Power Attack feat, you do not suffer Power Attack’s penalty on melee attack rolls on the first attack you make each turn. You still suffer the penalty on any additional attacks, including attacks of opportunity."

It ONLY applies when using Power Attack and applies to "Melee attack rolls"...

Looking up Melee Attack:
"Melee Attack: While a melee attack isn't an action type itself, many options and other rules affect melee attacks. Some combat options (such as the disarm and sunder combat maneuvers) can be used anytime you make a melee attack, including attacks of opportunity. "

..Includes Attacks of Opportunity.

Further more, you do have the option (although it was hotly debated on the forums but RAW states) you can turn on Power Attack at anytime you make an attack roll (so you could in fact not turn Power Attack on until your 3rd iterative attack in a Full Attack action).

So you can still activate PA on an AOO before your initiative and it would be your first attack this initiative turn.


Of course if you still don't like that logic, this could all happen ON your initiative...

1. Bad guy readies and action to "Cast shield in anyone attacks him"
2. Good guy has the initiative and takes a 5 foot step around a corner next to him with a two-handed sword and proceeds to attack.
3. Bad guys uses ready action to interrupt good guy's turn to cast a spell which provokes and AOO
4. Good guy uses AOO which interrupts the spell casting, swings two handed with Power Attack and has Furious Focus.

At this stage, it's his first melee attack this turn with PA on, furious focus SHOULD apply. Then the mage casts shield (with appropriate concentration check) and then Good Guy makes a full attack action using PA (with no Furious Focus bonus).


But the bottom line is, Showing/Not showing Furious Focus should still follow the same logic as Two-Weapon Fighting as it's a closer analogy. And I contest the two are not consistent in logic inside Hero Lab.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

I would have to disagree. The full text is:
"Benefit: When you are wielding a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon with two hands, and using the Power Attack feat, you do not suffer Power Attack’s penalty on melee attack rolls on the first attack you make each turn. You still suffer the penalty on any additional attacks, including attacks of opportunity."

It ONLY applies when using Power Attack and applies to "Melee attack rolls"...

Looking up Melee Attack:
"Melee Attack: While a melee attack isn't an action type itself, many options and other rules affect melee attacks. Some combat options (such as the disarm and sunder combat maneuvers) can be used anytime you make a melee attack, including attacks of opportunity. "

..Includes Attacks of Opportunity.

Further more, you do have the option (although it was hotly debated on the forums but RAW states) you can turn on Power Attack at anytime you make an attack roll (so you could in fact not turn Power Attack on until your 3rd iterative attack in a Full Attack action).

So you can still activate PA on an AOO before your initiative and it would be your first attack this initiative turn.


Of course if you still don't like that logic, this could all happen ON your initiative...

1. Bad guy readies and action to "Cast shield in anyone attacks him"
2. Good guy has the initiative and takes a 5 foot step around a corner next to him with a two-handed sword and proceeds to attack.
3. Bad guys uses ready action to interrupt good guy's turn to cast a spell which provokes and AOO
4. Good guy uses AOO which interrupts the spell casting, swings two handed with Power Attack and has Furious Focus.

At this stage, it's his first melee attack this turn with PA on, furious focus SHOULD apply. Then the mage casts shield (with appropriate concentration check) and then Good Guy makes a full attack action using PA (with no Furious Focus bonus).


But the bottom line is, Showing/Not showing Furious Focus should still follow the same logic as Two-Weapon Fighting as it's a closer analogy. And I contest the two are not consistent in logic inside Hero Lab.

I simply do not agree with what your saying. Not going to get into a big debate about it either. We shall agree to disagree.

P.S. - I don't work for LW. I couldn't do anything about this issue even if I 100% agreed with you. My advice is to put in a support ticket/bug report about it.

 

[Farling]

But the bottom line is, Showing/Not showing Furious Focus should still follow the same logic as Two-Weapon Fighting as it's a closer analogy. And I contest the two are not consistent in logic inside Hero Lab.

Unfortunately, your example shows precisely why HL can't display the +2 bonus on a single entry in the attacks table.

The bonus could be applied to any one of those attacks (but only one), so which one should HL display the bonus on?

 

[Togainu]

But the bottom line is, Showing/Not showing Furious Focus should still follow the same logic as Two-Weapon Fighting as it's a closer analogy. And I contest the two are not consistent in logic inside Hero Lab.

The reason why two-weapon fighting works the way it does is cause it alters more than just 1 attack. It alters stuff in the main hand in the off-hand and on iterative attacks. So a check mark (equipping and unequipped) makes sense.

Furious Focus alters just ONE attack and doesn't do anything else. So remembering that +modifier yourself is less work then, Check marking and after that remove the check mark of a furious focus modifier.

This is the clearest reason why those two things work differently and why one is implemented the way it is compared to the other. Besides that as Farling said your example is the perfect reason on why it isn't mentioned somewhere in the attack table. So at most it could be shown as a situational bonus but in my eyes not needed at all.

------

As for touching the rule thing slightly (This will be my only post regarding this specific topic. not a rules forum after all) "(so you could in fact not turn Power Attack on until your 3rd iterative attack in a Full Attack action)". Yeah sure you can do this however all your attacks will be red conned.
"You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls". It never states from the moment you activate it. So sure I allow you to activate it when you want but it will alter all your attacks even the ones earlier from your turn till the next time it is your turn in the round.

That is the issue with the wording of some feats/abilities and yes if you decide to activate it on an attack of opportunity I will red con the attack rolls on your turn as well. Paizo believes people to use brains and not wishful thinking on the things they read. "You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn", this wording clearly indicates to me it is supposed to be activated at your turn. This is even empowered by the fact it states all melee attack rolls.

Also the situation you described is one of those borderline situations. Where the lack of clear wording again muddles the pool (cause sure your action triggers it but he is finishing his turn and even moves him in initiative to just before you). That is the reason you have a DM in the game and that there are house rules.

 

[Jamz]

Rules aside, I just don't get why people are more comfortable remembering to add the +2(or +3 or +4 etc) in for furious focus on EVERY attack vs remembering to subtract it on the one off fringe cases?

If LW said, "We just feel it's better implemented this way" then so be it. I was simply pointing out "Because it affects AOO's" was flawed logic.

And Shadow, no problem, I know you don't work for LW and give us great options to customize HL as it were. I wish I knew the data files better or I'd just create a custom feat myself. (and I had already submitted a bug report a long time ago and got the same answer which is why I joined in the "discussion").

@Togainu; No problem and you are free to run it at your table anyway you see fit! But, if you were to play PFS or wanted to know the Rules as Written (RAW), you do not retcon the rolls (that seems like a nightmare!). If that was the case you would have to retcon every AOO you did earlier to.

Just an FYI: This was answered by a dev in the Paizo forums about 2 years back and covered deeply in the rules forum. So no need to debate it here. Take it for what it's worth, I was just reiterating what was already covered there.

 

[egg_green]

For me, personally, I GM a lot, and my primary workflow is to build an NPC/monster in Hero Lab and then print out a statblock to use at the table.

Whenever I have a bad guy with Furious Focus, I end up pasting the statblock into Word and manually modifying it. For example, I might say:
Greatsword +12/+5, (2d6+11/19-20) (-2 w/o FF)

As someone upthread mentioned, taking an attack of opportunity happens a LOT less than taking a full attack.

Though, to play devil's advocate to myself, something like that could get weird if you were hasted or otherwise got multiple attacks at the primary attack bonus. In that case, only the first one would ignore the Power Attack penalty.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

I was tossing around a few ideas for what I "could" do to display this FF text. I came up with a few concepts. The one I having an issue with is the argument that the penalty could negate "any" of the attacks.

Currently what I did was show the bonus for the characters "first" attack with a weapon without the PA penalty. I could maybe have a switch that instead shows the bonus FF would give for those that wanted to add to "any" attack. Its late here and I am not sure what is a better way to.

Here is the only way I can get something to display on the statblock print out.

=======================================
Furious Focus
No race fighter 6
Medium
Init +0; Senses Perception +0
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10
hp 41 (6d10+6)
Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +2 (+2 vs. fear)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 greatsword [FF +8H] +6/+1 (2d6+8/19-20) or
. . longsword [FF +7H] +5/+0 (1d8+5/19-20)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 13, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +5; CMD 17
Feats Furious Focus[APG], Power Attack
Languages Common
SQ armor training 1
Other Gear +1 greatsword [FF +8H], longsword [FF +7H], 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
=======================================


Here is what it would look like on a printed character sheet for the same character as above:

 

[Togainu]

If that was the case you would have to retcon every AOO you did earlier to.

This wouldn't be the case. Cause those AoO before your turn are in the round but before the turn you used the power attack (that's why the penalty lasts till your next turn aka one round is getting the penalty. From your turn till your turn on all attacks).

Either way let's go drop the entire rules thing all together now. Seeing the topic really will get off track otherwise as it kinda has by now...

I just don't get why people are more comfortable remembering to add the +2(or +3 or +4 etc) in for furious focus on EVERY attack vs remembering to subtract it on the one off fringe cases?

This is one of the reasons I would have to disagree. Seeing what you call off fringe cases are things that have entire builds around them causing you to have up to several AoO (example) and ways to trigger them. You and your players might not be building like that. Doesn't mean it isn't more than capable of being done (and seen it happen several times myself) causing that bonus to be applied on only one attack during an entire round.

In which case if it was on the sheet they would need to remove it for all their attacks, with the exception of that one attack each turn. As you see they both have their merits the way you are playing you would prefer to see the bonus, while someone building themselves around AoO doesn't.

The difference is in your case there is still always one attack you have to add it to. While someone building around AoO would need to remove that bonus each time for those AoO. In which case you could go for a check mark but again it would be for just one attack. Making it more of a UI clutter check mark than anything else in my opinion.

Edit: Seeing Shadow posted his example while I was posting.
I like the way you have done it Shadow. I stand by your point that iterative attacks shouldn't be able to get the bonus from Furious Focus though (but guess you could add the ability to do so). Seeing that iterative attack isn't the first attack of the turn. It would only be a first attack with power attack on (if you allow for that method).

 

[Jamz]

Shadow, that could work. And not sure what you meant by negating "any" attack? Unless you are talking about turning Power Attack on "during" your iterative attack?

If so, don't worry about it, although I gave it as an example (and meant to show you could turn PA during an AOO if not already on) it would not affect FF.

As Furious Focus only works on your FIRST attack regardless, it's always going to be the highest BAB. (I only argued "when" that first attack could happen and could be AOO).

Suggestion, would the stat block be clearer with a notation like:

Melee +1 greatsword +6[FF +8H]/+1 (2d6+8/19-20)
or
Melee +1 greatsword +6[+8H FF]/+1 (2d6+8/19-20)

At first it sort of looked like a "third" attack when it sat outside the +x/+x/+x block. Just my 2 cents.


@Togainu
Yes, I've built AOO builds before (although not a FF/AOO build). And I agree, we can't all have a statblock built the way we want it. (Not without Shadow's help!)

I would think the best solution would be to add Furious Focus as another checkbox next to Power Attack (grayed out when PA not selected). Check it and it adds the bonus (removes the penalty). Leave it unchecked for no affect.

I also wouldn't mind seeing a AOO attack/statline under the Basics tab in Equipped Weapons section showing an unmodified BAB attack (for two weapon fighting or FF or such). Maybe calling just Unmodified BAB Attack or such instead of AOO. Just a thought.