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Feat codependency with level

J

jkopp5cc

New member
Hello,

First time posting. I know if you are an avid pathfinder player like I am you like to simulate a couple of builds at varying levels to see the progression of your vision. I use Hero Lab to do this and in order to do it correctly I need to save multiple .por file at each specific level. This is the only way to determine if your feat choices are valid as you level.

Problem: If I create a level 11 Fighter from scratch in HL I could potentially give that character feats that he would not have been able to attain based on level and bab, etc. This is because the software is only using the current stats of the fighter at level 11.

A good example would be starting my build at level 11 and two feat choices that could happen:

9: Critical Focus
10: Bleeding Critical (critical focus, 11 BAB prereq)
11: Sickening Critical (critical focus, 11 BAB prereq)

Even though we all know this is wrong if you create a build starting at 11, HL will let this go through.

Solution: I think eventually Feats should be tied to the level that they are gained(and the stats of the character at that level) and error-checked to see if feat choices are legal. I don't know how many look-up functions will be necessary and my hope is that they would not bog the app down. Maybe a smaller subset or core stats could be created as a lookup file for just that character with saves, bab, level as the metadata.

I don't know if this has already been discussed in previous threads so please attach this to those let me know in the most harshest way possible. :D

If this can be solved, then next topic "do the same thing with Fame and equipment purchases" Have the ability to turn this off if you are just futzing around.

Thank you all,
Jonathan
 
This has been discussed before. Trying to change things to enable this sort of "what level did I take option whatever" tracking would be a huge overhaul, and so I don't think it is in the cards, sorry.
 
You can build the character 1 level at a time if you wish to avoid this issue as well, so there is already a workaround available.
 
jkopp5cc said:
Hello,

First time posting. I know if you are an avid pathfinder player like I am you like to simulate a couple of builds at varying levels to see the progression of your vision. I use Hero Lab to do this and in order to do it correctly I need to save multiple .por file at each specific level. This is the only way to determine if your feat choices are valid as you level.

Problem: If I create a level 11 Fighter from scratch in HL I could potentially give that character feats that he would not have been able to attain based on level and bab, etc. This is because the software is only using the current stats of the fighter at level 11.

A good example would be starting my build at level 11 and two feat choices that could happen:

9: Critical Focus
10: Bleeding Critical (critical focus, 11 BAB prereq)
11: Sickening Critical (critical focus, 11 BAB prereq)

Even though we all know this is wrong if you create a build starting at 11, HL will let this go through.

Solution: I think eventually Feats should be tied to the level that they are gained(and the stats of the character at that level) and error-checked to see if feat choices are legal. I don't know how many look-up functions will be necessary and my hope is that they would not bog the app down. Maybe a smaller subset or core stats could be created as a lookup file for just that character with saves, bab, level as the metadata.

I don't know if this has already been discussed in previous threads so please attach this to those let me know in the most harshest way possible. :D

If this can be solved, then next topic "do the same thing with Fame and equipment purchases" Have the ability to turn this off if you are just futzing around.

Thank you all,
Jonathan
Click to expand...


You don't have to make separate files foe each level.

Try this:

Create your new, level 1 character. Modify the name with a parenthetical "(L1)".

From the menu, choose "Duplicate Hero" and select your character. You now have a new character with the same name and "#2" after it.
Modify to 2nd level. Change the "(L1)" after the name to "(L2)" and remove the "#2".

Repeat for the remaining 18 levels.

You now have a single por file with all 20 stages of your build.

Save it, and refer to it as you level up, or export a new version at each level (I would recommend referring to it while using a separate *.por file for actual play, as moving all treasure to a new version of the character each time you level up would be annoying).


Additionally, the Retraining rules in Ultimate Campaign allow you to replace a Feat you selected before with a new one. It does not have to be one you qualified for when you gained the original.. .so builds made up of only high-level Feats are possible (with the exception that you cannot retrain a Feat you are using as a Prerequisite for something else).
 
jkopp5cc said:
A good example would be starting my build at level 11 and two feat choices that could happen:

9: Critical Focus
10: Bleeding Critical (critical focus, 11 BAB prereq)
11: Sickening Critical (critical focus, 11 BAB prereq)

Even though we all know this is wrong if you create a build starting at 11, HL will let this go through.
Click to expand...

How is this wrong?, just because you get a feat at a particular level doesn't mean you have to use it right away. In this example I see it as:

9: Critical Focus
10: Feat slot gained
11: Bleeding Critical (critical focus, 11 BAB prereq) AND
11: Sickening Critical (critical focus, 11 BAB prereq)
 
ErinRigh said:
How is this wrong?
Click to expand...
I think what he was trying to say is that if you START at level 11, you can add a whole bunch of feats that require a higher level, even though if you had progressed one level at a time it wouldn't have been possible (since you would've been too low a level to qualify for some of them).

It is kinda hard to describe in words... :)
 
Azhrei said:
I think what he was trying to say is that if you START at level 11, you can add a whole bunch of feats that require a higher level, even though if you had progressed one level at a time it wouldn't have been possible (since you would've been too low a level to qualify for some of them).

It is kinda hard to describe in words... :)
Click to expand...

Agreed, that's his point.

But, the Retraining rules can let you achieve the same thing ... so it is only a problem for those who wish to worry about it.

And, that being the case, Gear is actually a much bigger issue. Getting you WBL in bulk at, say, level 11 will allow you to select much more optimized gear than you would have found playing the character. In play, you are more likely to have a few oddball magic items and a good weapon and/or armor. With WBL handed out in bulk, players can go and purchase better-than-normal weapons and/or protection, and skimp on the consumables or miscellaneous items. I think that's an area much more prone to abuse.
 
If I were to take the class builder, and add Fighter 20 levels.
I get the warning, that HL will add 20 levels to the character.
I click yes, accept.

I have a whole pile of feats to select.
I scan through, and take a bunch of feats that all have the requirement of say BAB +8 or higher.
Not a single feat, of my hypothetical list of desired feats, was a valid choice at BAB +7 or lower.

Since the fighter had general feats at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and class bonus feats at 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 6th, all of which were acquired prior to having a BAB of +8, all of those are invalid choices, but HL has no problem with a newly created 20th level Fighter taking things that are all valid for the Fighter 20 to have.

That is his issue.

As said in the thread, I'd suggest building a level at a time... or checking your choices manually. Note to yourself that you have feats at whatever levels, and that this one was a valid choice here that one would have to be taken later than whatever level... to check that the choices are all valid.

I get that with Path of War maneuvers too, from the community files. If you build a Stalker (or any PoW class) by making a Stalker 15, rather than going through the levels a level at a time, you can take illegal numbers as far as power distribution goes. In order to take a 3rd level (or higher power) from a martial discipline you need at least one 1st or 2nd level maneuver from that discipline. If you take a 1st level maneuver, then a 3rd level, then a 5th level, and so on... and load up on higher level stuff you end up with too many powers at too high of a level.

If you get a piece of scratch paper, and note at class level 1, I get this many maneuvers, and I count as an initiator level "x" (because for every 2 levels in any other class/combination of classes) you count as +1 initiator level in a given PoW class (ie., Stalker 6 + Warder 6 each have 3 levels that are either not Stalker or not Warder, so both are an initiator 9 within their class choices... adding Fighter 1 to the character for level 13 doesn't change initiator level but adding Warder 1 does... that's an extra pair of non-Stalker levels, increasing the initiator level by 1 there for the next time Stalker gets maneuvers, if you ever advance that class again).

Anyway, you'll note I get 6 new maneuvers, and my initiator level allows me to take powers of some level or lower. Then I level up, and take so many of a level or lower. At 4th (and each level thereafter) you cross off one of your lowest powers and pencil in one additional power of your highest level at that level (ie., at Stalker 4, then at Stalker 6, etc)...

You end up with... I can have 14 maneuvers that have to be 2x level 1s, 2x level 2s, 2x level 3s or whatever. And you can just go Warder 7, Fighter 1, Stalker 6 and add a bunch of Stalker powers all at once... because you manually checked what was allowed.

Or if you prefer, then build the character a level at a time.
Whichever works easier for you.
 
Last edited:
I understand his issue, it is just wrong. ;)

If I generate a fighter at level 1 who fights with longsword and handaxe.
Feats
Level 1 Character - Two-weapon fighting
Level 1 Fighter - Weapon focus (longsword)

Advance to Level 2
Feats
Level 2 Fighter - Weapon focus (handaxe)

Advance to Level 3
Feats
Level 3 Character - NOTHING (just acquire the feat slot and put it in your pocket for later)

Advance to Level 4
Feats
Level 3 saved feat - Weapon Specialization (longsword)
Level 4 Fighter - Weapon Specialization (handaxe)

Advance to Level 5
Level 5 Character - NOTHING

Advance to Level 6
Level 6 Fighter - Improved Two-weapon Fighting

Advance to Level 7
Level 7 Character - NOTHING (Now sitting on 2 feat slots)

Advance to Level 8
Level 5 saved feat - Greater Weapon Focus (longsword)
Level 7 saved feat - Greater Weapon Focus (handaxe)
Level 8 Fighter - Improved Critical (longsword)

I now have 3 feats that require 8th level

I have played RPGs for 38 years and if there is one thing that I've learned, it is plan ahead with your character. Your DM is looking for ways to make your life hell, so sometimes a little forward thinking can give you a serious power build.

Just my 2 cp

Erin
 
Ualaa said:
Or if you prefer, then build the character a level at a time.
Click to expand...
This is the official answer you will get from LW.

HL only knows the current "State" of a character. Its not possible for it to know any history or previous levels. It knows "right" now and that is all.
 
Silveras said:
I am reasonably sure this is not allowed normally. You must use the Feat slot when you get it. House rules may say otherwise, but I am pretty sure the standard is "no".

Link: Jason Bulmahn saying so in 2013
Click to expand...

ok, I sit corrected, and admittedly, I am somewhat new to Pathfinder, but this is in direct contradiction of 3.5 so I admit it must be something new. Seems silly to me that you can't bank things like feats and skills, languages, and similar. That is like saying "If you don't learn to do it now, you can never do it"

It just is illogical, Captain.

My 2 cp, again

Erin
 
I am sure at least some groups house-rule to allow such things. I can see where the developers are coming from, though.. they don't want someone to "save up" and then only take a bunch of feats or skills suddenly, once in the adventure and you know that certain ones would be useful.
 
ErinRigh said:
I sit corrected, again :)

I guess I've been using it as a house rule for so long, I thought it was official :o

In any event the rule is plain stupid.
Click to expand...

This made me laugh out loud, I know the feeling! What do you mean a nat 20 isn't an auto-success on skill rolls!? kekekekekekekeke
 
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