ECL and Creature Hit Dice

[Kendall-DM]

Is there any reason that a creature with more than one Hit Die and an ECL of 0 is calculating experience point totals as if the Hit Dice were equivalent to class levels? I would expect that levels would follow the normal pattern, regardless of Hit Dice, UNLESS there is an ECL associated with a creature.

For example, a creature with 2 Hit Dice but an ECL of 1 upon attaining a class level will calculate the experience to it's next level based on already having a level to begin with, in other words, as if going to level 3.

However, a creature with 2 Hit Dice and no ECL will calculate it's experience as if it already has 2 levels of a class before it actually takes a class level, that is, it has to gain enough experience to get to level four before it advances.

Most of the creatures have an ECL, so it's not issue and probably hasn't come up until now. However, I don't run my game with ECL at all, so all my creatures are ECL of 0, but any that are given class levels act as if the pre-existing Hit Dice are actually class levels and it takes a ridiculous amount of XP to gain even the first level of a class.

Is this working as designed? If it is, can there be an option to turn it off?

Thanks.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Wow wall of text! Guess I am just tired. I have no answer without a bunch of research both into how 3.5 is "suppose" to work and how currently HL d20 does work.

I will add this to the to-do list.

 

[Kendall-DM]

Sorry about the wall of text. My real question was, can this be a configuration setting, wasn't really asking for an overall change. Just seemed odd that creatures without an ECL work as if their HD was their ECL.

I've been able to work around it for the time being, so no worries.

 

[Silveras]

Well, that's how it is supposed to work in 3.5.

Level Adjustment
This line is included in the entries of creatures suitable for use as player characters or as cohorts (usually creatures with Intelligence scores of at least 3 and possessing opposable thumbs). Add this number to the creature’s total Hit Dice, including class levels, to get the creature’s effective character level (ECL). A character’s ECL affects the experience the character earns, the amount of experience the character must have before gaining a new level, and the character’s starting equipment. See pages 172, 199, and 209 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide for more information

So.. "ECL" is "Effective Character Level" and = Racial Hit Dice + Level Adjustment (LA) + class levels.

There is no monster with "no ECL" ... there are monsters with no Level Adjustment, though. Is that what is really meant in this request?

Unearthed Arcana provided an optional rule for "buying off" Level Adjustmnet. At higher levels, Level Adjustment stops being a good balancing tool, and the ability to "buy it off" for a one-time XP loss seemed to make sense.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

I will keep an eye on this thread. But I admit I need to refresh myself on the whole ECL/LA rules of 3.5.

If this is working correctly Kendall-DM maybe you can just add a Mechanic to adjust the value back down by the class levels for monsters.

 

[Silveras]

I get the impression the Kendall-DM is asking for a house-rule setting that can alter how ECL is calculated.. by ignoring the racial Hit Dice of the monster. In that case, a 2HD Gnoll with 1 level of Ranger would count as 1st or 2nd level, instead of 4th.

Normal: 2 racial HD + 1 level (Ranger) + 1 LA = ECL 4

Without the Racial HD: 1 level (Ranger) + 1 LA = ECL 2
OR
1 level (Ranger) + 0 (all other factors ignored) = ECL 1

If I am reading the OP correctly, Kendall-DM is using the term/acronym "ECL" instead of "LA" for Level Adjustment, and is assuming that Racial HD do not apply if there is no LA.

 

[Kendall-DM]

I don't believe that is correct. The ECL is the effective character level of the Hit Dice of the monster. This is the character level of the creature if class levels are added, indicating their actual effective level. Even HL backs this up when I apply actual ECL rating. If I add 1, no matter how many HD, it indicates that the creature needs enough experience to get the level 3 before it gets to level 2 of the class it choose (1st level + ECL of 1 = current level of 2nd). So it needs to gain enough XP to gain 3rd level, or 3000 XP.

Much like humanoids, I had thought that having setting an ECL to 0 it would work the same as just gaining the 1st level and needing 1000 XP to get to level 2. That is the part I'm not sure on, as there is no creature with an ECL of 0 (excepting 1 HD humanoids, while not listed as 0, functionally work that way).

As for modifying it code-wise, I've done that. Unfortunately, when I do that it removes all the HD from the creature and there isn't even a HP box to enter HP into. But yeah, mine is a house rule, so to speak. Maybe I am speaking about LA... hmmmm... I just don't know. Overseas on business right now and I don't have access to my books, so it'll have to wait til I get back. In any case, I mean the one that doesn't apply HD as levels.

Stay tuned.

 

[Sendric]

In any case, I mean the one that doesn't apply HD as levels.

That would be Level Adjustment. ECL is Character Level plus Level Adjustment. Character Level is your total HD (racial plus class). No character, PC or NPC, can have a 0 ECL. Even if they have no racial HD, they will always have at least one class level.

Perhaps if you provided an example of what you are seeing we could better understand the problem you are facing.

 

[Silveras]

The block I quoted from the Monster Manual defines both Equivalent Character Level (ECL) and Level Adjustment (LA).

As Sendric noted, there are no creatures with "0 ECL" because ECL is the result of the calculation, not part of it.

Humanoids are a little different from other monters ... Goblins, Orcs, Humans, Dwarves, Elves, etc., have 0 Racial Hit Dice and only have class levels (or, as some have put it, they "trade in" their one Humanoid Racial HD for their 1st class level).

Level Adjustment is used for races that have special abilities that are not purely reflected in their Hit Dice.. usually several Spell-Like Abilities or a bunch of immunities/ resistances, and the like. Level Adjustment bumps their overall level to compensate for this.

If you are looking for a way to play a powerful race (one with Racial HD and/or Level Adjustment) from 1st level, then you may want to be looking at Savage Species.. that is that the book is about. It creates "Monster Classes" that spread the abilities and racial HD over class levels (such as Gnoll).. but the result is about the same. Once you finish the "Monster Class" progression (which you must do before taking any class levels), you end up as I described above... a 1st level Gnoll Ranger has 3 levels of the "Gnoll" monster class + 1 level of Ranger for an Effective Character Level of 4.

 

[Kendall-DM]

Guys, I was getting LA confused with ECL. I wanted all creatures without class levels to operate the same as 1 HD humanoids, that is they all started at XP 0 and proceeded from there. Unfortunately, it is impossible to do in HL, due to the fact that the racial HD disappear even without any class levels. I can't figure out how to 1) remove the XP requirements for the racial HD and 2) keep the racial HD as they are. This has been a house rule in my game campaign for years, so doing in HL was just something I was trying to get working. Unfortunately, I've just been adding the necessary XP to give it levels, but it doesn't accurately reflect the real XP.

Just an impossible task at this juncture, I've always thought ECL and LA were just unnecessary, as I did without in my game for 1st and 2nd Edition without any real issues. Well, that's that I guess. Thanks for the input!

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Guys, I was getting LA confused with ECL. I wanted all creatures without class levels to operate the same as 1 HD humanoids, that is they all started at XP 0 and proceeded from there. Unfortunately, it is impossible to do in HL, due to the fact that the racial HD disappear even without any class levels. I can't figure out how to 1) remove the XP requirements for the racial HD and 2) keep the racial HD as they are. This has been a house rule in my game campaign for years, so doing in HL was just something I was trying to get working. Unfortunately, I've just been adding the necessary XP to give it levels, but it doesn't accurately reflect the real XP.

Just an impossible task at this juncture, I've always thought ECL and LA were just unnecessary, as I did without in my game for 1st and 2nd Edition without any real issues. Well, that's that I guess. Thanks for the input!

Well that is pretty easy actually. Attached to this post is a user file with an adjustment that removes the LA value for any race selected. Just tested an Aasimar when added with to a character with this adjustment became 0HD by default and 1HD when adding one level of cleric.

Hope that helps...

 

[Kendall-DM]

Shadow,

That's what I'm trying to avoid. I want to keep the racial HD as well as the class levels. I just don't want the racial HD to count as class levels for XP advancement. As HL works, it just doesn't work unfortunately.

 

[Sendric]

Shadow,

That's what I'm trying to avoid. I want to keep the racial HD as well as the class levels. I just don't want the racial HD to count as class levels for XP advancement. As HL works, it just doesn't work unfortunately.

I wish my DM would allow that. My Half(red)-Dragon Troll would have been awesome. Well, more awesome anyway.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Shadow,

That's what I'm trying to avoid. I want to keep the racial HD as well as the class levels. I just don't want the racial HD to count as class levels for XP advancement. As HL works, it just doesn't work unfortunately.

Hmm ok. Will take a look as soon as I can....

 

[Kendall-DM]

I wish my DM would allow that. My Half(red)-Dragon Troll would have been awesome. Well, more awesome anyway.

Frankly, if you look at 1st and 2nd Ed. you would see that was how it always worked. When the ECL system with the Level Adjustments were introduced in v3.5, it made no sense. Essentially, it meant that monsters were gaining experience towards being monsters, which is totally against what the experience system is meant to represent. I know, I know, arguments can be, and have been, made to indicate the validity of that. However, any Joe Schmo can become a Wizard with 0 XP just because the Humanoid has 1 HD. So where does that HD go, it was there all through birth, childhood, adolescence, and adulthood, but as soon as you choose a class it goes away? *smh* Just a stupid system IMHO, and it should've never been implemented as a catch-all.

Now the argument to balance out characters is valid. A 1st level Ogre is not the equivalent of a 1st level base race character. In order to balance party level, that makes sense, but only as a metric for party balance, and not a catch-all for how experience is distributed. For example, I believe ECL is a great metric to indicate a 1st level Ogre is the equivalent of a 4th level character, but I still think the Ogre starts at 0 XP and would need 1000 XP to gain level. He just increases the party level balance with the ECL of 4th, basically for determining CR of encounters and overall party level or division of experience. Otherwise, an Ogre that is just an Ogre (from birth, childhood, adolescence, and adulthood, just like a base race character) would have to gain 6000 XP before it even chooses its first class, and will take another 4000 XP before it would gain another level. What?!?

In any case, I wouldn't even allow for a half-dragon troll, so you wouldn't like me as a DM.

Rant over.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

For the most part I agree with Kendall-DM actually. My view was the amount of complication to the game never provided a good return on the investment. I was very happy when Pathfinder simply removed all those rules. Which was also why when you brought this all up I had to spend time reading the rules as I simply never used them.

 

[Sendric]

In any case, I wouldn't even allow for a half-dragon troll, so you wouldn't like me as a DM.

That was a unique circumstance. Also, you're no fun.

I don't disagree with your points. I just like having excuses to bring up my old Half-Dragon Troll friend. I miss him.

 

[Kendall-DM]

For the most part I agree with Kendall-DM actually. My view was the amount of complication to the game never provided a good return on the investment. I was very happy when Pathfinder simply removed all those rules. Which was also why when you brought this all up I had to spend time reading the rules as I simply never used them.

I don't use them either, obviously. But it still complains to me in HL when I give NPC creatures levels (I made it so that NPCs gain XP just like PCs in HL). I work around the issue, but the XP is incorrect when I 'just make HL happy'.

 

[Silveras]

For the most part I agree with Kendall-DM actually. My view was the amount of complication to the game never provided a good return on the investment. I was very happy when Pathfinder simply removed all those rules. Which was also why when you brought this all up I had to spend time reading the rules as I simply never used them.

Mmm.. I don't know that I'd say Pathfinder got rid of all of them.

Level Adjustment is gone, sure.

But racial HD are still considered equivalent to "levels". See the section "Monstrous Characters" on pp. 405-406 of the Core Rulebook. Basically, the advice is for characters of the "regular" races to start with bonus levels so the total (class levels + racial HD) for all characters is the same.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Mmm.. I don't know that I'd say Pathfinder got rid of all of them.

Level Adjustment is gone, sure.

But racial HD are still considered equivalent to "levels". See the section "Monstrous Characters" on pp. 405-406 of the Core Rulebook. Basically, the advice is for characters of the "regular" races to start with bonus levels so the total (class levels + racial HD) for all characters is the same.

Correct. It now falls into the DM ruling section instead of lots of pages of rules. Besides add in all the races from the ARG and I don't see the desire from players for playing Half-dragons and stuff anymore. Pretty much everything gets covered with 0HD races.