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There are 13 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
2. Question about Mordheim Files
From: "Toller Madsen" <tmadsen@air.on.ca>
3. Re: Dark Angels and 40K white file
From: "Toller Madsen" <tmadsen@air.on.ca>
4. Re: Question about Mordheim Files
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
5. Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
From: "Debbie Hunton" <hunton@hotmail.com>
6. Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
7. Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
From: "Debbie Hunton" <hunton@hotmail.com>
8. Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
From: Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com>
9. Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
10. Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
From: Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com>
11. mordheim files
From: "Kevin McKibben" <timaro99@foxinternet.net>
12. Re: mordheim files
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
13. Re: design problem
From: zebuleon@peoplepc.com
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:16:19 +0100
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
Subject: Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
One fine day in the middle of the night, Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com>
got up to write:
>
>> >>1. We have footmen for all the races. Adding these is easy.
>> >>However, allowing them the option of taking a mount is hard, due to
>> >>the cost calcuation (i.e. add in all equipment and base cost, double
>> >>it, then add the value of the mount). Any ideas?
>> >
>> >Unfortunately, Colen's recommendation here was incorrect. *ALL* cost
>> >calculations are performed *AFTER* all processing of options is performed -
>> >it's a two-pass process. There is no way within AB to only apply a
>> >multiplier to the entire unit EXCEPT a particular option - even with the
>> >careful use of option prioritization.
>>
>>You are making the invalid assumption that the mount costs are
>>controlled via options. The last time I looked at the FB files, they
>>used the list: attribute to select a mount from, i.e. the actual option
>>cost 0 and the child unit cost the points. IIRC, whatever I suggested
>>doesn't multiply the cost of child units - I had some major annoyances
>>when making the 40K files with it.
>
>Sorry. When I simply saw the word "mount", I assumed horses and the like. I
>did NOT realize that a "monster mount" was implied, especially since
>generic "footmen" were the unit in question. You'll need to clarify this
>issue for us if you continue to have problems, since this is clearly an
>open issue.
Hmm... I wonder. You might be right about that, for the warhorse (etc.)
options.
>> >There is no way to DELETE things from existing files, such as allies. The
>> >simplest solution here is to create a new mode for your campaing rules (you
>> >probably already have). Then, define a new composition rule-set for that
>> >mode and select it by default for that mode. You can specify this
>> >composition rule-set to impose a maximum limit of 0% allies.
>>
>>Or, indeed, to just not have an ally group (I think), using xbrk:.
>
>That would get dangerous. I considered that, but it would result in there
>being NO ally group. While this is conceptually "good", it's also BAD. If
>there is no ally group, AB will put allied units in with other normal units
>of their composition group (e.g. an allied character gets lumped into
>characters). Since this does NOT preclude the user from taking allies, it
>simply masks the problem, thereby making it a bigger issue to track (and
>MANUALLY, too). By leaving an ally group with a limit of 0%, AB tracks
>allies normally, and the use of allies will set of bells in the composition
>and validation rules to be easily identified.
I think it'd be amusing to make all allies cost 100,000 times what they
do normally. "OK, I'll add a unit of knights.. OMG!" * faints
>P.S. Don't you just love all these subtle little behaviors lurking in the
>bowels of AB?
Oh yeah. It's almost as annoying as a real programming language
--
'Not Colin' McAlister - License to Skrill
Email: demandred@skrill.org | Visit http://www.skrill.org/ today!
-----------------------------+------------------------------------
"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" - Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:47:57 -0400
From: "Toller Madsen" <tmadsen@air.on.ca>
Subject: Question about Mordheim Files
I've noticed that when a Skaven Hero gets a New Skill Advance that not all
skills show up in the lists. Is there a reason. My data files are upto
date from skril.org. Has anybody else expericned this. Example is I have a
Black Skaven that wants to take the skill Fearsome. It should be under
Strength Skills (Which a Black Skaven can take) but the only thing that
shows up is Unstoppable Charge.
Thanks,
Toller Madsen
tmadsen@air.on.ca
toller@hillcity-comics.com
tmadsen@microage-tb.com
jolinar@startrekmail.com
"No I don't have enough e-mail addresses"
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:49:09 -0400
From: "Toller Madsen" <tmadsen@air.on.ca>
Subject: Re: Dark Angels and 40K white file
I noticed it with Tac squads. I emailed you about this last week I think.
Toller Madsen
tmadsen@air.on.ca
toller@hillcity-comics.com
tmadsen@microage-tb.com
jolinar@startrekmail.com
"No I don't have enough e-mail addresses"
----- Original Message -----
From: "'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills" <demandred@skrill.org>
To: ab@support.wolflair.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:38 AM
Subject: Re: [AB] Dark Angels and 40K white file
> One fine day in the middle of the night, Clinton Gann
> <darkange@pacbell.net> got up to write:
>
> >Greetings all,
> > I'm not sure what I might have done wrong however everytime that
> >I
> >have loaded the white files the size of my squads Dark Angel squads
> >gets limited to a max of eight. Have I done something stupid?
>
> Always a possibility. What's more possible is that, like an idiot, I
> changed the Veteran Sergeant and broke something. Which specific squads
> are you talking about?
>
> --
> 'Not Colin' McAlister - License to Skrill
> Email: demandred@skrill.org | Visit http://www.skrill.org/ today!
> -----------------------------+------------------------------------
> "Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" - Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time
>
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________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:25:40 +0100
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
Subject: Re: Question about Mordheim Files
One fine day in the middle of the night, Toller Madsen
<tmadsen@air.on.ca> got up to write:
>I've noticed that when a Skaven Hero gets a New Skill Advance that not all
>skills show up in the lists. Is there a reason. My data files are upto
>date from skril.org. Has anybody else expericned this. Example is I have a
>Black Skaven that wants to take the skill Fearsome. It should be under
>Strength Skills (Which a Black Skaven can take) but the only thing that
>shows up is Unstoppable Charge.
Are you using Army Builder 1.4d (as opposed to 1.4a-c)? It works fine
from here.
--
'Not Colin' McAlister - License to Skrill
Email: demandred@skrill.org | Visit http://www.skrill.org/ today!
-----------------------------+------------------------------------
"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" - Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:41:32 GMT
From: "Debbie Hunton" <hunton@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
>>1. We have footmen for all the races... allowing them the option
>>of taking a mount...
>I did not realize a "monster mount" was implied, especially since generic
>"footmen" were the unit in question. You'll need to clarify
>this issue for us.
Well, they probably could be treated as monster mounts, but I was
thinking more of making them a "child" unit like a horse (the mounts
are things like horses, wolves, bears, cold ones, etc). So, if I
need to do the "mount rebate," how can I do that?
>>2. We allow some war machines to all races... I want to make crew a
required "child" unit, but how do I give the option of having crew for
each race?
>Do you want the user to SELECT the crew type or have it always be the
>crew type for the native race? In the latter case, Colen's recommendation
>is correct.
Thanks, that's what I want to do.
>>3. Oh, and how do I overwrite values in the main race files with
>>Warhammer (i.e. I need to dis-allow all races from having allies)?
>The simplest solution here is create a new moe for your campaign rules
>(you probably already have). Then, define a new composition rule-set
>for that mode and select it by default for that mode. You can specify
>this composition rule-set to impose a maximum limit of 0% allies.
Ummmm... well, I'm feeling a little extra silly. I haven't been able to
find enough information in the Construction Kit paperwork to figure out
how to set up a mode, or how to put those into my data file. I've made
a copy of all the Warhammer data files and changed the .wfb to .pgc and
then made a new file called Rulebook.pgc where I'm defining the new
stuff.
Can you help?
>>P.S. Don't you just love all these subtle little behaviors lurking in
>>the bowels of AB?
>Oh yeah. It's almost as annoying as a real programming language
Actually, I find it more annoying. <g>
Debbie
P.S. Don't you guys ever get tired of answering these silly questions
from dumb people? Oh... ummmmm, I take that back... from highly
intelligent, beautiful people. <g>
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:42:12 +0100
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
Subject: Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
One fine day in the middle of the night, Debbie Hunton
<hunton@hotmail.com> got up to write:
>>>1. We have footmen for all the races... allowing them the option
>>>of taking a mount...
>
>>I did not realize a "monster mount" was implied, especially since generic
>>"footmen" were the unit in question. You'll need to clarify
>>this issue for us.
>
>Well, they probably could be treated as monster mounts, but I was
>thinking more of making them a "child" unit like a horse (the mounts
>are things like horses, wolves, bears, cold ones, etc). So, if I
>need to do the "mount rebate," how can I do that?
As long as the actual 'Add Horse Child Unit' option costs 0, you won't
need it. If the 'Add Horse Child Unit' option costs, say, 4 points,
you'd need to chain in an option (i.e., with 'more') that cost -4 points
to negate it.
>Ummmm... well, I'm feeling a little extra silly. I haven't been able to
>find enough information in the Construction Kit paperwork to figure out
>how to set up a mode, or how to put those into my data file. I've made
>a copy of all the Warhammer data files and changed the .wfb to .pgc and
>then made a new file called Rulebook.pgc where I'm defining the new
>stuff.
>
>Can you help?
Use a race augment of 'xx'. In that augment, define a mode (using
'mode') and then specify the behaviours you want with the
'-mode=yourmode' qualifier.
>P.S. Don't you guys ever get tired of answering these silly questions
>from dumb people? Oh... ummmmm, I take that back... from highly
>intelligent, beautiful people. <g>
These questions? No. The "I can't find Obvious Thing 1, where is it?"
questions? Yes.
--
'Not Colin' McAlister - License to Skrill
Email: demandred@skrill.org | Visit http://www.skrill.org/ today!
-----------------------------+------------------------------------
"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" - Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:47:16 GMT
From: "Debbie Hunton" <hunton@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
>>>>1. We have footmen for all the races... allowing them the option
>>>>of taking a mount...
>>
>>>I did not realize a "monster mount" was implied, especially since
>>>generic "footmen" were the unit in question. You'll need to clarify
>>>this issue for us.
>>
>>Well, they probably could be treated as monster mounts, but I was
>>thinking more of making them a "child" unit like a horse (the mounts
>>are things like horses, wolves, bears, cold ones, etc). So, if I
>>need to do the "mount rebate," how can I do that?
>
>As long as the actual 'Add Horse Child Unit' option costs 0, you won't
>need it. If the 'Add Horse Child Unit' option costs, say, 4 points,
>you'd need to chain in an option (i.e., with 'more') that cost -4 points to
>negate it.
Actually, each mount has a different value. I can provide them as an
option at full price, but I don't know how to auto link (and hide) the
discount of half price before I double the cost. Or, quite honestly,
how to make it double the cost *only* if they choose a mount. *sigh*
>>Ummmm... well, I'm feeling a little extra silly. I haven't been able
>>to find enough information in the Construction Kit paperwork to figure out
>>how to set up a mode, or how to put those into my data file. I've made a
>>copy of all the Warhammer data files and changed the .wfb to .pgc and then
>>made a new file called Rulebook.pgc where I'm defining the new stuff.
>>
>>Can you help?
>
>Use a race augment of 'xx'. In that augment, define a mode (using
>'mode') and then specify the behaviours you want with the
>'-mode=yourmode' qualifier.
I'm not typing directly into the files, I'm using ABCreator. Where do
I find the area to add the race augment, and what format do I use to
define the mode? I know that's probably simple and right in front of
me in the paperwork, but I'm not seeing it. I know I need to do an
augmenation for each race to say ally=0%, but where? How? I feel so
dumb sometimes with this program!
> >P.S. Don't you guys ever get tired of answering these silly questions
> >from dumb people? Oh... ummmmm, I take that back... from highly
> >intelligent, beautiful people. <g>
>
>These questions? No. The "I can't find Obvious Thing 1, where is it?"
>questions? Yes.
Thank you for making me feel a little less stupid for having to ask for
help with these questions. <g>
Debbie
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:21:40 -0700
From: Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com>
Subject: Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
At 05:41 PM 5/31/00 +0000, you wrote:
> >>1. We have footmen for all the races... allowing them the option
> >>of taking a mount...
>
> >I did not realize a "monster mount" was implied, especially since generic
> >"footmen" were the unit in question. You'll need to clarify
> >this issue for us.
>
>Well, they probably could be treated as monster mounts, but I was
>thinking more of making them a "child" unit like a horse (the mounts
>are things like horses, wolves, bears, cold ones, etc). So, if I
>need to do the "mount rebate," how can I do that?
Here's the answer I posted previously. Let me know if this isn't clear
enough....
The simplest solution here is to simply assign the mount option at
half-cost, which is then doubled to the proper value. This is ugly to the
user, though. I recommend creating a hidden option called "Mount Rebate" or
some such. Chain to this option from the "Mount" option via
"more:rebate=auto". Give this hidden option a cost of half the normal Mount
cost and make it a NEGATIVE cost value. The net effect is that the Mount
LOOKS like it costs the full amount, but when it is added, the rebate cuts
the cost in half and THEN the cost gets doubled, resulting in no NET
doubling occuring for the Mount.
> >>3. Oh, and how do I overwrite values in the main race files with
> >>Warhammer (i.e. I need to dis-allow all races from having allies)?
>
> >The simplest solution here is create a new moe for your campaign rules
> >(you probably already have). Then, define a new composition rule-set
> >for that mode and select it by default for that mode. You can specify
> >this composition rule-set to impose a maximum limit of 0% allies.
>
>Ummmm... well, I'm feeling a little extra silly. I haven't been able to
>find enough information in the Construction Kit paperwork to figure out
>how to set up a mode, or how to put those into my data file. I've made
>a copy of all the Warhammer data files and changed the .wfb to .pgc and
>then made a new file called Rulebook.pgc where I'm defining the new
>stuff.
With the "mode" attribute for races. This attribute allows you to define a
new mode, which appears on the "Create New Army" dialog under the list of
scenarios. If you make the mode global (by defining it via an Augmentation
record with race "xx"), then it will be defined for all races.
Once you create your new mode, you can use the "legl" attribute on units
and options. This will restrict them to only be available when that
scenario is selected by the user.
You can then use "xbrk" to define the custom composition rule-set that sets
the allies limit to be 0%. You can establish this rule-set as the default
as part of the "mode" attribute you define above.
Your use of a separate file for all of your customizations is perfect. With
the above technique, you can then lump your custom file in with the regular
files and have them co-exist nicely. The user can select "Debbie's Rules"
as a mode when they create an army and get all the custom stuff you've
added. Or, they can select the default scenario and create a roster for
normal WFB rules.
> >>P.S. Don't you just love all these subtle little behaviors lurking in
> >>the bowels of AB?
>
> >Oh yeah. It's almost as annoying as a real programming language
>
>Actually, I find it more annoying. <g>
It's a different way of thinking. You'll get used to it pretty quickly, I'm
guessing. The initial learning curve to do complicated stuff like you're
tackling is pretty steep. But once you get the hang of it, you'll have no
problems doing all sorts of customizations.
>P.S. Don't you guys ever get tired of answering these silly questions
>from dumb people? Oh... ummmmm, I take that back... from highly
>intelligent, beautiful people. <g>
Actually, they're not silly. As I mentioned, it's a steep learning curve to
tackle this complex stuff. The only questions I get tired of are the ones
from people who clearly just never bothered to go through the tutorial and
get the basics down. Those questions are irritating. The WORST questions
are from people who didn't even bother reading the topics under the Help
menu within the program (for AB questions). Those questions really tweak
me. :-( In your case, though, you've been asking valid questions about how
to best leverage the tool to solve your objectives, and you've clearly got
a grasp of the basics. There's nothing wrong with that in my mind.
Thanks, Rob
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 726-9689
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:43:45 +0100
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
Subject: Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
One fine day in the middle of the night, Debbie Hunton
<hunton@hotmail.com> got up to write:
>>As long as the actual 'Add Horse Child Unit' option costs 0, you won't
>>need it. If the 'Add Horse Child Unit' option costs, say, 4 points,
>>you'd need to chain in an option (i.e., with 'more') that cost -4 points to
>>negate it.
>
>Actually, each mount has a different value. I can provide them as an
>option at full price, but I don't know how to auto link (and hide) the
>discount of half price before I double the cost. Or, quite honestly,
>how to make it double the cost *only* if they choose a mount. *sigh*
I've taken a look at the FB files, and Warhorses look like they cost 3
points. All you'd need to do would be to create a separate 'Warhorse'
option (just copy the attributes out of the old one) that cost half the
price of the original, and make sure to use that for the Footman unit.
>>Use a race augment of 'xx'. In that augment, define a mode (using
>>'mode') and then specify the behaviours you want with the
>>'-mode=yourmode' qualifier.
>
>I'm not typing directly into the files, I'm using ABCreator. Where do
>I find the area to add the race augment, and what format do I use to
>define the mode? I know that's probably simple and right in front of
>me in the paperwork, but I'm not seeing it. I know I need to do an
>augmenation for each race to say ally=0%, but where? How? I feel so
>dumb sometimes with this program!
ABCreator has an 'Augment' tab; that's where you define augments.
>> >P.S. Don't you guys ever get tired of answering these silly questions
>> >from dumb people? Oh... ummmmm, I take that back... from highly
>> >intelligent, beautiful people. <g>
>>
>>These questions? No. The "I can't find Obvious Thing 1, where is it?"
>>questions? Yes.
>
>Thank you for making me feel a little less stupid for having to ask for
>help with these questions. <g>
These are not stupid questions. When I start making sarcastic comments,
you'll know you've asked stupid questions.
--
'Not Colin' McAlister - License to Skrill
Email: demandred@skrill.org | Visit http://www.skrill.org/ today!
-----------------------------+------------------------------------
"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" - Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:43:43 -0700
From: Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com>
Subject: Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
> >As long as the actual 'Add Horse Child Unit' option costs 0, you won't
> >need it. If the 'Add Horse Child Unit' option costs, say, 4 points,
> >you'd need to chain in an option (i.e., with 'more') that cost -4 points to
> >negate it.
>
>Actually, each mount has a different value. I can provide them as an
>option at full price, but I don't know how to auto link (and hide) the
>discount of half price before I double the cost. Or, quite honestly,
>how to make it double the cost *only* if they choose a mount. *sigh*
OK, first is the issue of doubling the unit cost. There are two ways you
can do this.
The first method is to use the "umul" race attribute. This attribute
defines a rule that says "all units of type A are multiplied by X in their
cost". You can double all unit prices by defining a global "umul" attribute
with a type of "DoubleCost" and a multiplier of 2. Then, anytime you want a
unit's cost doubled, you simply need to assign that unit the type
"DoubleCost". This can be done via an optoin, such as the mount optoin.
The second method is to use the "ucst" option attribute. This attribute
specifies that the parent unit's cost is multiplied by X. By using
"ucst:all*2", you can multiply the cost of the unit by 2. This attribute
can be attached to the mount option also.
The rebate is handled by creating a separate option. For starters, leave
this option visible until you see it working properly (important tip for
playing with hidden options). Call this option "Rebate" and assign it a
cost of half the mount, but make the cost NEGATIVE. For example, if the
mount costs 10 points, the rebate should be -5 points. [Note: You'll need a
separate optoin for each different rebate amount, but I'm only giving you
one here as an example.] Add the attribute "more:Rebate=auto" to the mount
option. This will automatically cause the Rebate option to be processed
whenever the mount option is selected. In fact, you'll see it appear in the
list of options for the unit when the mount is selected.
After you see this rebate working properly, you can assign the option the
"hide" attribute to have it be invisible to the user. Also, to ensure that
it doesn't appear in roster printouts, you'll want to be sure the rebate
option does NOT have an abbreviation assigned to it.
>I'm not typing directly into the files, I'm using ABCreator. Where do
>I find the area to add the race augment, and what format do I use to
>define the mode? I know that's probably simple and right in front of
>me in the paperwork, but I'm not seeing it. I know I need to do an
>augmenation for each race to say ally=0%, but where? How? I feel so
>dumb sometimes with this program!
There should be a tab at the top of ABCreator that is labeled "Augment".
This is where you enter your augmentations to other existing records. This
is also where you can define a "global" race attribute, as I described
above and in my previous post. You'll want to define the "mode" and "xbrk"
attributes as global via this panel of ABC.
Basically, all an augmentation does is add an attribute to an existing
record that lives somewhere else in the data files. For example, in the WFB
files, there is the unit "dwwarr" for Dwarf Warriors". If I wanted to add a
new attribute to that unit, I have two choices. I can either modify the
unit directly in the WFB files or I can augment it. If I do the former,
then a new release of the WFB data files will require me to re-enter my
changes. If I augment it, I can modify it from a different file. Let's say
I want to change the cost of the unit to always be 100 points. I can then
go to the Augment tab, create a new record, select "Unit Local" for the
type of attribute, and then assign the attribute "xcst:100". After saving
the changes, the next time you bring up the WFB files, you'll see Dwarf
Warriors cost 100 points each.
Thanks, Rob
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 726-9689
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:21:44 -0700
From: "Kevin McKibben" <timaro99@foxinternet.net>
Subject: mordheim files
I'm using the mordheim14 datafiles and I can't give my Skaven Assassin Adept +1 strength. Am I missing something?
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 23:19:45 +0100
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
Subject: Re: mordheim files
One fine day in the middle of the night, Kevin McKibben
<timaro99@foxinternet.net> got up to write:
> I'm using the mordheim14 datafiles and I can't give my Skaven Assassin Adept
> +1 strength. Am I missing something?
Yes. He's already at his maximum strength.
--
'Not Colin' McAlister - License to Skrill
Email: demandred@skrill.org | Visit http://www.skrill.org/ today!
-----------------------------+------------------------------------
"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" - Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time
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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 04:28:19 -0000
From: zebuleon@peoplepc.com
Subject: Re: design problem
thanks for your help I finally got everything working the way I need
it to.
thanks
zebuleon
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There are 13 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
2. Question about Mordheim Files
From: "Toller Madsen" <tmadsen@air.on.ca>
3. Re: Dark Angels and 40K white file
From: "Toller Madsen" <tmadsen@air.on.ca>
4. Re: Question about Mordheim Files
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
5. Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
From: "Debbie Hunton" <hunton@hotmail.com>
6. Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
7. Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
From: "Debbie Hunton" <hunton@hotmail.com>
8. Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
From: Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com>
9. Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
10. Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
From: Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com>
11. mordheim files
From: "Kevin McKibben" <timaro99@foxinternet.net>
12. Re: mordheim files
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
13. Re: design problem
From: zebuleon@peoplepc.com
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:16:19 +0100
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
Subject: Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
One fine day in the middle of the night, Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com>
got up to write:
>
>> >>1. We have footmen for all the races. Adding these is easy.
>> >>However, allowing them the option of taking a mount is hard, due to
>> >>the cost calcuation (i.e. add in all equipment and base cost, double
>> >>it, then add the value of the mount). Any ideas?
>> >
>> >Unfortunately, Colen's recommendation here was incorrect. *ALL* cost
>> >calculations are performed *AFTER* all processing of options is performed -
>> >it's a two-pass process. There is no way within AB to only apply a
>> >multiplier to the entire unit EXCEPT a particular option - even with the
>> >careful use of option prioritization.
>>
>>You are making the invalid assumption that the mount costs are
>>controlled via options. The last time I looked at the FB files, they
>>used the list: attribute to select a mount from, i.e. the actual option
>>cost 0 and the child unit cost the points. IIRC, whatever I suggested
>>doesn't multiply the cost of child units - I had some major annoyances
>>when making the 40K files with it.
>
>Sorry. When I simply saw the word "mount", I assumed horses and the like. I
>did NOT realize that a "monster mount" was implied, especially since
>generic "footmen" were the unit in question. You'll need to clarify this
>issue for us if you continue to have problems, since this is clearly an
>open issue.
Hmm... I wonder. You might be right about that, for the warhorse (etc.)
options.
>> >There is no way to DELETE things from existing files, such as allies. The
>> >simplest solution here is to create a new mode for your campaing rules (you
>> >probably already have). Then, define a new composition rule-set for that
>> >mode and select it by default for that mode. You can specify this
>> >composition rule-set to impose a maximum limit of 0% allies.
>>
>>Or, indeed, to just not have an ally group (I think), using xbrk:.
>
>That would get dangerous. I considered that, but it would result in there
>being NO ally group. While this is conceptually "good", it's also BAD. If
>there is no ally group, AB will put allied units in with other normal units
>of their composition group (e.g. an allied character gets lumped into
>characters). Since this does NOT preclude the user from taking allies, it
>simply masks the problem, thereby making it a bigger issue to track (and
>MANUALLY, too). By leaving an ally group with a limit of 0%, AB tracks
>allies normally, and the use of allies will set of bells in the composition
>and validation rules to be easily identified.
I think it'd be amusing to make all allies cost 100,000 times what they
do normally. "OK, I'll add a unit of knights.. OMG!" * faints
>P.S. Don't you just love all these subtle little behaviors lurking in the
>bowels of AB?
Oh yeah. It's almost as annoying as a real programming language
--
'Not Colin' McAlister - License to Skrill
Email: demandred@skrill.org | Visit http://www.skrill.org/ today!
-----------------------------+------------------------------------
"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" - Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:47:57 -0400
From: "Toller Madsen" <tmadsen@air.on.ca>
Subject: Question about Mordheim Files
I've noticed that when a Skaven Hero gets a New Skill Advance that not all
skills show up in the lists. Is there a reason. My data files are upto
date from skril.org. Has anybody else expericned this. Example is I have a
Black Skaven that wants to take the skill Fearsome. It should be under
Strength Skills (Which a Black Skaven can take) but the only thing that
shows up is Unstoppable Charge.
Thanks,
Toller Madsen
tmadsen@air.on.ca
toller@hillcity-comics.com
tmadsen@microage-tb.com
jolinar@startrekmail.com
"No I don't have enough e-mail addresses"
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:49:09 -0400
From: "Toller Madsen" <tmadsen@air.on.ca>
Subject: Re: Dark Angels and 40K white file
I noticed it with Tac squads. I emailed you about this last week I think.
Toller Madsen
tmadsen@air.on.ca
toller@hillcity-comics.com
tmadsen@microage-tb.com
jolinar@startrekmail.com
"No I don't have enough e-mail addresses"
----- Original Message -----
From: "'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills" <demandred@skrill.org>
To: ab@support.wolflair.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:38 AM
Subject: Re: [AB] Dark Angels and 40K white file
> One fine day in the middle of the night, Clinton Gann
> <darkange@pacbell.net> got up to write:
>
> >Greetings all,
> > I'm not sure what I might have done wrong however everytime that
> >I
> >have loaded the white files the size of my squads Dark Angel squads
> >gets limited to a max of eight. Have I done something stupid?
>
> Always a possibility. What's more possible is that, like an idiot, I
> changed the Veteran Sergeant and broke something. Which specific squads
> are you talking about?
>
> --
> 'Not Colin' McAlister - License to Skrill
> Email: demandred@skrill.org | Visit http://www.skrill.org/ today!
> -----------------------------+------------------------------------
> "Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" - Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> graduation party, a summer brunch, or simple birthday party,
> shop GreatEntertaining.com before your next celebration.
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> To unsubscribe from this group, email
>
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:25:40 +0100
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
Subject: Re: Question about Mordheim Files
One fine day in the middle of the night, Toller Madsen
<tmadsen@air.on.ca> got up to write:
>I've noticed that when a Skaven Hero gets a New Skill Advance that not all
>skills show up in the lists. Is there a reason. My data files are upto
>date from skril.org. Has anybody else expericned this. Example is I have a
>Black Skaven that wants to take the skill Fearsome. It should be under
>Strength Skills (Which a Black Skaven can take) but the only thing that
>shows up is Unstoppable Charge.
Are you using Army Builder 1.4d (as opposed to 1.4a-c)? It works fine
from here.
--
'Not Colin' McAlister - License to Skrill
Email: demandred@skrill.org | Visit http://www.skrill.org/ today!
-----------------------------+------------------------------------
"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" - Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:41:32 GMT
From: "Debbie Hunton" <hunton@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
>>1. We have footmen for all the races... allowing them the option
>>of taking a mount...
>I did not realize a "monster mount" was implied, especially since generic
>"footmen" were the unit in question. You'll need to clarify
>this issue for us.
Well, they probably could be treated as monster mounts, but I was
thinking more of making them a "child" unit like a horse (the mounts
are things like horses, wolves, bears, cold ones, etc). So, if I
need to do the "mount rebate," how can I do that?
>>2. We allow some war machines to all races... I want to make crew a
required "child" unit, but how do I give the option of having crew for
each race?
>Do you want the user to SELECT the crew type or have it always be the
>crew type for the native race? In the latter case, Colen's recommendation
>is correct.
Thanks, that's what I want to do.
>>3. Oh, and how do I overwrite values in the main race files with
>>Warhammer (i.e. I need to dis-allow all races from having allies)?
>The simplest solution here is create a new moe for your campaign rules
>(you probably already have). Then, define a new composition rule-set
>for that mode and select it by default for that mode. You can specify
>this composition rule-set to impose a maximum limit of 0% allies.
Ummmm... well, I'm feeling a little extra silly. I haven't been able to
find enough information in the Construction Kit paperwork to figure out
how to set up a mode, or how to put those into my data file. I've made
a copy of all the Warhammer data files and changed the .wfb to .pgc and
then made a new file called Rulebook.pgc where I'm defining the new
stuff.
Can you help?
>>P.S. Don't you just love all these subtle little behaviors lurking in
>>the bowels of AB?
>Oh yeah. It's almost as annoying as a real programming language
Actually, I find it more annoying. <g>
Debbie
P.S. Don't you guys ever get tired of answering these silly questions
from dumb people? Oh... ummmmm, I take that back... from highly
intelligent, beautiful people. <g>
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:42:12 +0100
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
Subject: Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
One fine day in the middle of the night, Debbie Hunton
<hunton@hotmail.com> got up to write:
>>>1. We have footmen for all the races... allowing them the option
>>>of taking a mount...
>
>>I did not realize a "monster mount" was implied, especially since generic
>>"footmen" were the unit in question. You'll need to clarify
>>this issue for us.
>
>Well, they probably could be treated as monster mounts, but I was
>thinking more of making them a "child" unit like a horse (the mounts
>are things like horses, wolves, bears, cold ones, etc). So, if I
>need to do the "mount rebate," how can I do that?
As long as the actual 'Add Horse Child Unit' option costs 0, you won't
need it. If the 'Add Horse Child Unit' option costs, say, 4 points,
you'd need to chain in an option (i.e., with 'more') that cost -4 points
to negate it.
>Ummmm... well, I'm feeling a little extra silly. I haven't been able to
>find enough information in the Construction Kit paperwork to figure out
>how to set up a mode, or how to put those into my data file. I've made
>a copy of all the Warhammer data files and changed the .wfb to .pgc and
>then made a new file called Rulebook.pgc where I'm defining the new
>stuff.
>
>Can you help?
Use a race augment of 'xx'. In that augment, define a mode (using
'mode') and then specify the behaviours you want with the
'-mode=yourmode' qualifier.
>P.S. Don't you guys ever get tired of answering these silly questions
>from dumb people? Oh... ummmmm, I take that back... from highly
>intelligent, beautiful people. <g>
These questions? No. The "I can't find Obvious Thing 1, where is it?"
questions? Yes.
--
'Not Colin' McAlister - License to Skrill
Email: demandred@skrill.org | Visit http://www.skrill.org/ today!
-----------------------------+------------------------------------
"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" - Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:47:16 GMT
From: "Debbie Hunton" <hunton@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
>>>>1. We have footmen for all the races... allowing them the option
>>>>of taking a mount...
>>
>>>I did not realize a "monster mount" was implied, especially since
>>>generic "footmen" were the unit in question. You'll need to clarify
>>>this issue for us.
>>
>>Well, they probably could be treated as monster mounts, but I was
>>thinking more of making them a "child" unit like a horse (the mounts
>>are things like horses, wolves, bears, cold ones, etc). So, if I
>>need to do the "mount rebate," how can I do that?
>
>As long as the actual 'Add Horse Child Unit' option costs 0, you won't
>need it. If the 'Add Horse Child Unit' option costs, say, 4 points,
>you'd need to chain in an option (i.e., with 'more') that cost -4 points to
>negate it.
Actually, each mount has a different value. I can provide them as an
option at full price, but I don't know how to auto link (and hide) the
discount of half price before I double the cost. Or, quite honestly,
how to make it double the cost *only* if they choose a mount. *sigh*
>>Ummmm... well, I'm feeling a little extra silly. I haven't been able
>>to find enough information in the Construction Kit paperwork to figure out
>>how to set up a mode, or how to put those into my data file. I've made a
>>copy of all the Warhammer data files and changed the .wfb to .pgc and then
>>made a new file called Rulebook.pgc where I'm defining the new stuff.
>>
>>Can you help?
>
>Use a race augment of 'xx'. In that augment, define a mode (using
>'mode') and then specify the behaviours you want with the
>'-mode=yourmode' qualifier.
I'm not typing directly into the files, I'm using ABCreator. Where do
I find the area to add the race augment, and what format do I use to
define the mode? I know that's probably simple and right in front of
me in the paperwork, but I'm not seeing it. I know I need to do an
augmenation for each race to say ally=0%, but where? How? I feel so
dumb sometimes with this program!
> >P.S. Don't you guys ever get tired of answering these silly questions
> >from dumb people? Oh... ummmmm, I take that back... from highly
> >intelligent, beautiful people. <g>
>
>These questions? No. The "I can't find Obvious Thing 1, where is it?"
>questions? Yes.
Thank you for making me feel a little less stupid for having to ask for
help with these questions. <g>
Debbie
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:21:40 -0700
From: Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com>
Subject: Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
At 05:41 PM 5/31/00 +0000, you wrote:
> >>1. We have footmen for all the races... allowing them the option
> >>of taking a mount...
>
> >I did not realize a "monster mount" was implied, especially since generic
> >"footmen" were the unit in question. You'll need to clarify
> >this issue for us.
>
>Well, they probably could be treated as monster mounts, but I was
>thinking more of making them a "child" unit like a horse (the mounts
>are things like horses, wolves, bears, cold ones, etc). So, if I
>need to do the "mount rebate," how can I do that?
Here's the answer I posted previously. Let me know if this isn't clear
enough....
The simplest solution here is to simply assign the mount option at
half-cost, which is then doubled to the proper value. This is ugly to the
user, though. I recommend creating a hidden option called "Mount Rebate" or
some such. Chain to this option from the "Mount" option via
"more:rebate=auto". Give this hidden option a cost of half the normal Mount
cost and make it a NEGATIVE cost value. The net effect is that the Mount
LOOKS like it costs the full amount, but when it is added, the rebate cuts
the cost in half and THEN the cost gets doubled, resulting in no NET
doubling occuring for the Mount.
> >>3. Oh, and how do I overwrite values in the main race files with
> >>Warhammer (i.e. I need to dis-allow all races from having allies)?
>
> >The simplest solution here is create a new moe for your campaign rules
> >(you probably already have). Then, define a new composition rule-set
> >for that mode and select it by default for that mode. You can specify
> >this composition rule-set to impose a maximum limit of 0% allies.
>
>Ummmm... well, I'm feeling a little extra silly. I haven't been able to
>find enough information in the Construction Kit paperwork to figure out
>how to set up a mode, or how to put those into my data file. I've made
>a copy of all the Warhammer data files and changed the .wfb to .pgc and
>then made a new file called Rulebook.pgc where I'm defining the new
>stuff.
With the "mode" attribute for races. This attribute allows you to define a
new mode, which appears on the "Create New Army" dialog under the list of
scenarios. If you make the mode global (by defining it via an Augmentation
record with race "xx"), then it will be defined for all races.
Once you create your new mode, you can use the "legl" attribute on units
and options. This will restrict them to only be available when that
scenario is selected by the user.
You can then use "xbrk" to define the custom composition rule-set that sets
the allies limit to be 0%. You can establish this rule-set as the default
as part of the "mode" attribute you define above.
Your use of a separate file for all of your customizations is perfect. With
the above technique, you can then lump your custom file in with the regular
files and have them co-exist nicely. The user can select "Debbie's Rules"
as a mode when they create an army and get all the custom stuff you've
added. Or, they can select the default scenario and create a roster for
normal WFB rules.
> >>P.S. Don't you just love all these subtle little behaviors lurking in
> >>the bowels of AB?
>
> >Oh yeah. It's almost as annoying as a real programming language
>
>Actually, I find it more annoying. <g>
It's a different way of thinking. You'll get used to it pretty quickly, I'm
guessing. The initial learning curve to do complicated stuff like you're
tackling is pretty steep. But once you get the hang of it, you'll have no
problems doing all sorts of customizations.
>P.S. Don't you guys ever get tired of answering these silly questions
>from dumb people? Oh... ummmmm, I take that back... from highly
>intelligent, beautiful people. <g>
Actually, they're not silly. As I mentioned, it's a steep learning curve to
tackle this complex stuff. The only questions I get tired of are the ones
from people who clearly just never bothered to go through the tutorial and
get the basics down. Those questions are irritating. The WORST questions
are from people who didn't even bother reading the topics under the Help
menu within the program (for AB questions). Those questions really tweak
me. :-( In your case, though, you've been asking valid questions about how
to best leverage the tool to solve your objectives, and you've clearly got
a grasp of the basics. There's nothing wrong with that in my mind.
Thanks, Rob
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 726-9689
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:43:45 +0100
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
Subject: Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
One fine day in the middle of the night, Debbie Hunton
<hunton@hotmail.com> got up to write:
>>As long as the actual 'Add Horse Child Unit' option costs 0, you won't
>>need it. If the 'Add Horse Child Unit' option costs, say, 4 points,
>>you'd need to chain in an option (i.e., with 'more') that cost -4 points to
>>negate it.
>
>Actually, each mount has a different value. I can provide them as an
>option at full price, but I don't know how to auto link (and hide) the
>discount of half price before I double the cost. Or, quite honestly,
>how to make it double the cost *only* if they choose a mount. *sigh*
I've taken a look at the FB files, and Warhorses look like they cost 3
points. All you'd need to do would be to create a separate 'Warhorse'
option (just copy the attributes out of the old one) that cost half the
price of the original, and make sure to use that for the Footman unit.
>>Use a race augment of 'xx'. In that augment, define a mode (using
>>'mode') and then specify the behaviours you want with the
>>'-mode=yourmode' qualifier.
>
>I'm not typing directly into the files, I'm using ABCreator. Where do
>I find the area to add the race augment, and what format do I use to
>define the mode? I know that's probably simple and right in front of
>me in the paperwork, but I'm not seeing it. I know I need to do an
>augmenation for each race to say ally=0%, but where? How? I feel so
>dumb sometimes with this program!
ABCreator has an 'Augment' tab; that's where you define augments.
>> >P.S. Don't you guys ever get tired of answering these silly questions
>> >from dumb people? Oh... ummmmm, I take that back... from highly
>> >intelligent, beautiful people. <g>
>>
>>These questions? No. The "I can't find Obvious Thing 1, where is it?"
>>questions? Yes.
>
>Thank you for making me feel a little less stupid for having to ask for
>help with these questions. <g>
These are not stupid questions. When I start making sarcastic comments,
you'll know you've asked stupid questions.
--
'Not Colin' McAlister - License to Skrill
Email: demandred@skrill.org | Visit http://www.skrill.org/ today!
-----------------------------+------------------------------------
"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" - Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:43:43 -0700
From: Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com>
Subject: Re: Some Complex Augmentation File ?s
> >As long as the actual 'Add Horse Child Unit' option costs 0, you won't
> >need it. If the 'Add Horse Child Unit' option costs, say, 4 points,
> >you'd need to chain in an option (i.e., with 'more') that cost -4 points to
> >negate it.
>
>Actually, each mount has a different value. I can provide them as an
>option at full price, but I don't know how to auto link (and hide) the
>discount of half price before I double the cost. Or, quite honestly,
>how to make it double the cost *only* if they choose a mount. *sigh*
OK, first is the issue of doubling the unit cost. There are two ways you
can do this.
The first method is to use the "umul" race attribute. This attribute
defines a rule that says "all units of type A are multiplied by X in their
cost". You can double all unit prices by defining a global "umul" attribute
with a type of "DoubleCost" and a multiplier of 2. Then, anytime you want a
unit's cost doubled, you simply need to assign that unit the type
"DoubleCost". This can be done via an optoin, such as the mount optoin.
The second method is to use the "ucst" option attribute. This attribute
specifies that the parent unit's cost is multiplied by X. By using
"ucst:all*2", you can multiply the cost of the unit by 2. This attribute
can be attached to the mount option also.
The rebate is handled by creating a separate option. For starters, leave
this option visible until you see it working properly (important tip for
playing with hidden options). Call this option "Rebate" and assign it a
cost of half the mount, but make the cost NEGATIVE. For example, if the
mount costs 10 points, the rebate should be -5 points. [Note: You'll need a
separate optoin for each different rebate amount, but I'm only giving you
one here as an example.] Add the attribute "more:Rebate=auto" to the mount
option. This will automatically cause the Rebate option to be processed
whenever the mount option is selected. In fact, you'll see it appear in the
list of options for the unit when the mount is selected.
After you see this rebate working properly, you can assign the option the
"hide" attribute to have it be invisible to the user. Also, to ensure that
it doesn't appear in roster printouts, you'll want to be sure the rebate
option does NOT have an abbreviation assigned to it.
>I'm not typing directly into the files, I'm using ABCreator. Where do
>I find the area to add the race augment, and what format do I use to
>define the mode? I know that's probably simple and right in front of
>me in the paperwork, but I'm not seeing it. I know I need to do an
>augmenation for each race to say ally=0%, but where? How? I feel so
>dumb sometimes with this program!
There should be a tab at the top of ABCreator that is labeled "Augment".
This is where you enter your augmentations to other existing records. This
is also where you can define a "global" race attribute, as I described
above and in my previous post. You'll want to define the "mode" and "xbrk"
attributes as global via this panel of ABC.
Basically, all an augmentation does is add an attribute to an existing
record that lives somewhere else in the data files. For example, in the WFB
files, there is the unit "dwwarr" for Dwarf Warriors". If I wanted to add a
new attribute to that unit, I have two choices. I can either modify the
unit directly in the WFB files or I can augment it. If I do the former,
then a new release of the WFB data files will require me to re-enter my
changes. If I augment it, I can modify it from a different file. Let's say
I want to change the cost of the unit to always be 100 points. I can then
go to the Augment tab, create a new record, select "Unit Local" for the
type of attribute, and then assign the attribute "xcst:100". After saving
the changes, the next time you bring up the WFB files, you'll see Dwarf
Warriors cost 100 points each.
Thanks, Rob
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Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 726-9689
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com
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Message: 11
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:21:44 -0700
From: "Kevin McKibben" <timaro99@foxinternet.net>
Subject: mordheim files
I'm using the mordheim14 datafiles and I can't give my Skaven Assassin Adept +1 strength. Am I missing something?
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 23:19:45 +0100
From: 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills <demandred@skrill.org>
Subject: Re: mordheim files
One fine day in the middle of the night, Kevin McKibben
<timaro99@foxinternet.net> got up to write:
> I'm using the mordheim14 datafiles and I can't give my Skaven Assassin Adept
> +1 strength. Am I missing something?
Yes. He's already at his maximum strength.
--
'Not Colin' McAlister - License to Skrill
Email: demandred@skrill.org | Visit http://www.skrill.org/ today!
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"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" - Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time
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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 04:28:19 -0000
From: zebuleon@peoplepc.com
Subject: Re: design problem
thanks for your help I finally got everything working the way I need
it to.
thanks
zebuleon
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