[Bug] Encumbrance and size change

[Minous]

an issue was raised at one of my tables recently, apparently when you transform via a polymorph effect such as a Kitsune fox form HL calculates encumbrance incorrectly. In most cases all that matters is your current encumbrance level (light/medium/heavy) since the gear transforms with you. See http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9tl1

PS Yes I know bugs should be reported via email, I have already done that via Case #113761 but I thought it should also be noted publicly in case others have this issue to.

 

[Togainu]

When you alter in size there is a multiplier that gets applied to you. You can find the rules in this regard here:

"Bigger and Smaller Creatures: The figures on Table: Carrying Capacity are for Medium bipedal creatures. A larger bipedal creature can carry more weight depending on its size category, as follows: Large ×2, Huge ×4, Gargantuan ×8, Colossal ×16. A smaller creature can carry less weight depending on its size category, as follows: Small ×3/4, Tiny ×1/2, Diminutive ×1/4, Fine ×1/8.

Quadrupeds can carry heavier loads than bipeds can. Multiply the values corresponding to the creature's Strength score from Table: Carrying Capacity by the appropriate modifier, as follows: Fine ×1/4, Diminutive ×1/2, Tiny ×3/4, Small ×1, Medium ×1-1/2, Large ×3, Huge ×6, Gargantuan ×12, Colossal ×24."

Also the faq you are linking is for a different kind of transformation penalty. That one isn't specifically just for size changes it is actually more aimed at type chances (specifically ones that normally can't wear armor). For example wild shape giving a boost in strength (because you transform in a specific animal) but still staying medium. Means you still keep the original encumbrance. While if you chance in size you do gain the size increase bonus mentioned above which CAN alter the encumbrance. (They kinda started to mess slightly with the entire transforming info a lot lately)

But if a humanoid just uses enlarge person you just become bigger and can carry double the weight. And as far as I know not all items on you count as gaining double their weight (not 100% certain about this one tho thought just equipment). But if the item multiplier isn't x2 for everything like it is for weapons and armor. It might be the size increase lets you carry more.

And also the added +2 STR can alter the encumbrance. So be sure to check all factors just in case

 

[Minous]

I was specifically calling out change shape/polymorph abilities that change size, not size change spells (enlarge/reduce person). The rules you quited would apply to the later category not the former.

Take a Kitsune in normal shape, add ~30lbs of gear (near their max light load) and then use the fox shape ability they can easily become heavily encumbered due to gear which shouldn't happen (see FAQ)

 

[Togainu]

I actually can't reproduce that. When I make a Kitsune they are by default a fox. Adding a human to the change shape ability and after that checking it or unchecking it in "in-play" doesn't alter my encumbrance at all (seeing a kitsune and the human form are both medium and can both just wear armor).

Might there be something else that is altering the encumbrance for you?

Ah nevermind the bit above. I see you are referring to a supplement I don't have with the fox shape.

That said you alter into a fox a fox is a tiny creature. Tiny creatures only get x1/2 your current carrying capacity. and get a penalty to str seeing it functions like beast shape II. Meaning that lowers your encumbrance even further. Don't forget you aren't just altering your shape to that of a creature of the same size. You alter to a creature that is also smaller than you currently are. The carrying capacity still chances in that case

 

[Minous]

Depends on your gear load. give the PC a STR of 11 38lbs of gear while in kitsune (IE fox shape unchecked) which should place that at max light load. Then check the fox form. It will lower your STR by -2 giving you a 9 STR score and a max load of 22.5 lbs and medium encumbrance

Please note that a Kitsune's default form in not a fox, it is a fox looking humanoid. You will probably have to add the fox shape feat.

 

[Togainu]

If you were in medium or heavy load from encumbrance before transforming, you continue to take those penalties in your melded form
You say you currently are still in light. So you go to the next bit

Otherwise, ignore the weight of melded items and calculate your encumbrance in your polymorphed form entirely based on non-melded items
Meaning you need to calculate from scratch what your encumbrance is. Seeing you became tiny. It means 1/2 of what you originally had together with the STR penalty on top of that still (so a STR value of 9 carrying capacity = 30 for light taking half of that light would become 15lbs). And ignoring items that melded. Seeing I don't have the supplement I ain't entirely certain if the melded items are being ignored correctly currently.

 

[Minous]

The issue is that the melded gear is still being being added to the total, thus this bug report. It should have been ignored but isnt.

 

[Togainu]

Than I just misunderstood the way you initially formulated the problem

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Never mind. I just saw your tiny font message.

I guess its "nice" to know about a reported bug but LW gets LOTS of them. Not sure posting to the forum is really helpful.

 

[Minous]

@ShadowChemosh Looks like you missed my original post script PS Yes I know bugs should be reported via email, I have already done that via Case #113761 but I thought it should also be noted publicly in case others have this issue to.

This was more of an FYI post

 

[ShadowChemosh]

@ShadowChemosh Looks like you missed my original post script PS Yes I know bugs should be reported via email, I have already done that via Case #113761 but I thought it should also be noted publicly in case others have this issue to.

This was more of an FYI post

I did. I missed the tiny font. I updated my post after I pressed submit.

I am an old man and didn't have my readers on.

 

[Azhrei]

I am an old man and didn't have my readers on.

Wow, does that work for you? I have my readers on and I'm still an old man?!

I don't mind seeing bug posts here. In fact, I'd like to see a way to query the reported bugs so I can determine whether a problem I'm having is a s/w issue or just me not interpreting rules correctly. Posting here seems to be the only way to determine either of the above (whether a bug has already been reported or whether I'm misreading the rules).

 

[Togainu]

I partly agree with your statement Azhrei. But there are downsides to that as well.

A bug gets assigned a priority. The more people run into it the more important it is for them to fix it. So it gets moved up the list. (could be done with a vote system but than you run into my second point. This voting system also gives a screwed view of how many actively while playing run into it. Compared to them reporting it themselves. Seeing they can up vote it because they tested it and it is an actual bug while not impacting their game)

Second a bug might look like the same thing you are running into but seeing the amount of mechanics in the background it might actually not be the case at all.

Third while it might be a "misreading" in a rule now from you and the team replied to it like that. But later a FAQ gets pushed making your way of reading correct. People still see the reply of it being a misread and might not re-report the now actual error.

 

[Azhrei]

I partly agree with your statement Azhrei. But there are downsides to that as well.

Oh yeah... TANSTAAFL.

A bug gets assigned a priority. The more people run into it the more important it is for them to fix it. So it gets moved up the list. (could be done with a vote system but than you run into my second point. This voting system also gives a screwed view of how many actively while playing run into it. Compared to them reporting it themselves. Seeing they can up vote it because they tested it and it is an actual bug while not impacting their game)

All true.

I would point out that most people using the software are not even likely to file a bug report whatsoever. I know in my gaming group (total of six people using HL) I'm the only one who is even likely to file a bug report. The others will consider it "too much trouble".

I'm not saying that the above should affect the priority scheme, nor am I saying it would change anything to have a "voting" system rather than tracking "reported" bugs. I'm merely pointing out the uphill battle that LW has in trying to track real problems in the software.

Second a bug might look like the same thing you are running into but seeing the amount of mechanics in the background it might actually not be the case at all.

And this is why I will always report anything I consider to be an "interpretation" error here on the forum.

I wouldn't come here for a simple math error. I would come here if a feat didn't seem to be applied (such as to an attack roll) and the description of the attack roll didn't list the feat at all (the way skills show the breakdown of where the numbers come from).

This is actually a separate bug report that I've already filed -- many fields don't have the breakdown of how the number was obtained. For example, Initiative doesn't have a breakdown as to what factors are included in the computation.

Third while it might be a "misreading" in a rule now from you and the team replied to it like that. But later a FAQ gets pushed making your way of reading correct. People still see the reply of it being a misread and might not re-report the now actual error.

Also true.

But status fields in the bug report can compensate for most of this. (What it can't compensate for is the fact that Paizo doesn't datestamp their FAQ rulings. If they did, that could be compared against the history of a bug report to determine if a given bug should be reopened.)

Anyway, I don't mean to argue one way or the other. Perhaps a moderator should split these two (or three?) posts into a separate thread if we're going to discuss it further...?