Birthright For Pathfinder for HL

[ShadowChemosh]

I will sacrifice a goat to the server gods at once!

If only that worked in IT!

 

[Sarelth]

If that worked I am sure there would be a goat shortage and goat prices would sky rocket...

 

[psych777]

it might be an extinct species by now...lol

 

[Sarelth]

We could always use politicians if the goats ran out...

 

[Sarelth]

On a more to the point aspect of my thread though, how many people are actually interested in the Birthright Campaign setting? Am I doing this just for myself mostly? I have had one person on a different forum show some interest, but they have not gotten back to me in a while now. Does anyone even remember the setting? I have not really read the Kingmaker stuff on Kingdom making so I am not sure it compares to the Birthright setting, apart from not having the same setting of course.

I have the races, I think I can do the classes well enough, but the main mechanics of the Campaign that set it apart would be the Blood Abilities that grant special powers and the Realm Magic (Spells that affect very large areas). I could probably figure out something for the Unique monsters known as Awnshieliegn. Just not sure about the actual Domain rulership rules, though most of them could really just be left out of HL as they are not really doable as regular character rules, I think. I have to read over the Kingmaker rules and the Ultimate Campaign rules one of these days.

 

[Silveras]

My summary comparison:

Birthright's Domains were about the PCs each being a ruler with divine right and divine power, interacting on an international level with multiple allied and opposed kingdoms. The Kingdom rules in Ultimate Campaign are about the Party sharing one kingdom, each taking on one of a number of offices (with others filled by loyal NPCs).

Pathfinder doesn't have anything like Realm Spells, or Sources, and does not have any real view of religious organizations/facilities as power sources. Some bits of Mythic may work, but the reception for the Mythic Rules has been very uneven, with a tendency toward "they're flawed after a certain point".

The Downtime rules in Ultimate Campaign allow the PCs to build up organizations and property, but not on the international scale of Birthrights non-Landed Domains.

There are no direct equivalents of Domain Actions that would affect other Domains, although there are more detailed and sophisticated Mass Combat Rules (again, in Ultimate Campaign).

The Awnsheghlien could be made into a subtype, but really the "tacked on" nature of the bloodline powers (you can randomly be powerless or super-powered.. roll 1d100 and hope for the best!) don't fit well with Pathfinder (and 3.x) unless converted into a Feat chain or a "Scion" class of some sort.

 

[Sarelth]

Thanks for the quick overview, the 3rd edition conversion that I am using is from the Birthright.net forum/website and it takes the bloodline abilities a little out of the randomness of 2nd edition. One option was a feat line and another was a Scion class actually. I was think of going the route of the Class, I find that feats are in pretty short supply as it is, but I am not at that point yet so I may just rethink it a little.

I heard the mass combat system in Ultimate combat was good. The one in Birthright was a little awkward, to say the least. So may just leave the Mass combat to the player/Dm's choice.

Domain actions, Holdings and general realm diplomacy would be a good place to sort some things out that are specific to the Birthright campaign. I want it to have the same sort of flavour as the original, just more caught up with current rules. Maybe mix in the more localized rules from UC with teh More regional rules of Birthright if I can figure it out.

 

[Sarelth]

I am working on some Archetypes right now. Currently the paladin ones for specific gods that allow for different alignment Paladins. I have run into a runt.

How do I make the Archetype selectable? its show up, but is greyed out for me. I have gone over it a few times now to see if I can find any restrictions that I missed, but can't find any.


Here is what I used. I based it off what I found in existing Paladin Archetypes.

<thing id="arBRAvani" name="Paladin of Avani" description="Code of Conduct: Paladins of Avani follow a Code of Conduct and they lose all class abilities if they ever fail to defend places of learning or to protect Avani’s people against those who would use magic against them. They also must respect legitimate authority and not act chaotically or without fore thought. All paladins of Avani know the Five Oaths of Service that the Khinasi require to be taken by all capable of casting true magic. They maintain and keep to these oaths as a point of honor, even though they do not undergo the same rituals that those taking them do. They are frequently used as hunters of those who refuse to take them but don’t hold other nationalities to the same standards since they are considered less civilized and knowing than are the Khinasi. These are the basic codes of conduct for Paladins of Avani, individual sects have varying interpretations of them and any paladin belonging to one will adjust his code of conduct to reflect that interpretation.\n\nThey substitute Smite Chaos for Smite Evil as a class ability that works exactly the same except that it applies to chaotic creatures vice evil ones.\n\nPaladins of Avani may freely multiclass as a magician or wizard but not both, without losing their ability to advance as a paladin." compset="ClassVary" uniqueness="unique" isshowonly="yes">
    <usesource source="BRCS"/>
    <tag group="AbReplace" tag="cPalDtEvil"/>
    <tag group="AbReplace" tag="cPalAuraGd"/>
    <tag group="AbReplace" tag="cPalSmite"/>
    <tag group="ClVaryName" tag="AppParen"/>
    <tag group="AlgnReq" tag="LawNeut"/>
    <tag group="ClassSkill" tag="Knowledge"/>
    <tag group="ClassSkill" tag="skBRLead"/>
    <tag group="ClassSkill" tag="skUseMagic"/>
    <bootstrap thing="cPalSmiCha">
      <autotag group="ClSpecWhen" tag="4"/>
      </bootstrap>
    <bootstrap thing="cPalSmiCha">
      <autotag group="ClSpecWhen" tag="7"/>
      </bootstrap>
    <bootstrap thing="cPalSmiCha">
      <autotag group="ClSpecWhen" tag="10"/>
      </bootstrap>
    <bootstrap thing="cPalSmiCha">
      <autotag group="ClSpecWhen" tag="13"/>
      </bootstrap>
    <bootstrap thing="cPalSmiCha">
      <autotag group="ClSpecWhen" tag="16"/>
      </bootstrap>
    <bootstrap thing="cPalSmiCha">
      <autotag group="ClSpecWhen" tag="19"/>
      </bootstrap>
    <bootstrap thing="cPalAurLaw">
      <autotag group="ClSpecWhen" tag="1"/>
      </bootstrap>
    <bootstrap thing="cInqDetMag">
      <autotag group="ClSpecWhen" tag="1"/>
      </bootstrap>
    <bootstrap thing="cPalSmiCha">
      <autotag group="ClSpecWhen" tag="1"/>
      </bootstrap>
    <link linkage="varies" thing="cHelpPal"/>
    </thing>

 

[ShadowChemosh]

How do I make the Archetype selectable? its show up, but is greyed out for me. I have gone over it a few times now to see if I can find any restrictions that I missed, but can't find any.

Is you paladin past level 1? If so HL gives a warning as its not really valid to add an archetype past level 1. If you do add it to a paladin past level 1 the warning message won't appear.

Remember HL never stops you from breaking rules it just gives a warning. So if you don't meet the pre-req's of a feat but add it to your character it will work.

 

[Sarelth]

I am not sure what I did, but I think that HL think my Archetypes are labels or something. The sample paladin is level 1 brand new test dumby. But the Arhetypes are not selectable at all. Can clink on them, but not apply them, like the class headers. Still derping around with it to try to get it to work. Just confused.

I found my error, the base I used was teh Paladin Header, it had a checkbox that reads Show Only... I might need more coffee for this. lol

 

[ShadowChemosh]

    <bootstrap thing="cPalSmiCha">
      <autotag group="ClSpecWhen" tag="4"/>
      </bootstrap>

Just a friendly thought here is that I assume cPalSmiCha is an ability you made up? If so I would recommend that you add the "BR" for birthright unique id to everything you create. So cPalSmiCha would become "cPalBRSmCh" instead.

Another way to make this easier to remember is inside the editor you can go to "Tools->Set User Identifier" and the editor will add the BR always for you. The reason you want to do this is with the constantly growing nature of the HL data set you will eventually use the same ID as a core Thing. When that happens HL falls into safe mode until you change the Unique ID. Which like above could be listed in many places...

 

[ShadowChemosh]

I am not sure what I did, but I think that HL think my Archetypes are labels or something. The sample paladin is level 1 brand new test dumby. But the Arhetypes are not selectable at all. Can clink on them, but not apply them, like the class headers. Still derping around with it to try to get it to work. Just confused.

Oh in that case and looking at the XML you did make it a label. the XML is isshowonly="yes". So in the editor uncheck the "Show Only?" option under the blue buttons on the RIGHT side.

 

[Sarelth]

For the Paladin ability I just linked it to the existing Smite Chaos ability, while I was testing the Archetypes. Will be adding the ability to the file now that I have it working. Now I can add the details for the Paladin variants I have, then work on the next set of Archetypes, if I find any that are needed.

cPalSmiCha is the Paladin alternate ability Smite Chaos, not sure from what source though, just searched it in the list of things I have. Will add it to my file, just in case its not a friendly to some people.

 

[psych777]

On a more to the point aspect of my thread though, how many people are actually interested in the Birthright Campaign setting? Am I doing this just for myself mostly? I have had one person on a different forum show some interest, but they have not gotten back to me in a while now. Does anyone even remember the setting?

i remember it as it was the only setting where i ran the game. but i haven't found anyone in some time that wanted to play it...and right now i'm without a group for any game as my last one broke up when the gm 'took a break'

 

[Sarelth]

I always loved Birthright because it was a lot more political. I had a group that wanted to play it a while back, but I had to move. I have tried a couple PBEM's for it, but it just was not the same.

 

[Silveras]

Thanks for the quick overview, the 3rd edition conversion that I am using is from the Birthright.net forum/website and it takes the bloodline abilities a little out of the randomness of 2nd edition. One option was a feat line and another was a Scion class actually. I was think of going the route of the Class, I find that feats are in pretty short supply as it is, but I am not at that point yet so I may just rethink it a little.

I should add that Legendary Games has produced some add-ons and optional variant rules for the Kingdom Rule of Ultimate Campaign. Some of the new Edict types (behavior modes for the kingdom, like how aggressive it is in acquiring new lands, or how high the tax rates are) allow more interaction with other Kingdoms. Their supplements Ultimate Battle and Ultimate War expand the mass combat system fairly well. The problem is that as variant rules, HeroLab is not set up to accommodate them well.

I heard the mass combat system in Ultimate combat was good. The one in Birthright was a little awkward, to say the least. So may just leave the Mass combat to the player/Dm's choice.

I got to be a beta tester on the computer game for Birthright many years ago. It turns out that the design team at TSR was hoping the computer game team would produce a better system than the core Birthright mass-combat system.

Domain actions, Holdings and general realm diplomacy would be a good place to sort some things out that are specific to the Birthright campaign. I want it to have the same sort of flavour as the original, just more caught up with current rules. Maybe mix in the more localized rules from UC with teh More regional rules of Birthright if I can figure it out.

In addition to the Kingdom rules in Ultimate Campaign (they pretty much completely replace and fix errors in the rules as they were in Kingmaker), the Faction Guide presents non-Kingdom organizations that the PCs can join (but not "rule over"), and there are smaller-scale ones in Inner Sea Combat, Inner Sea Magic, and Occult Mysteries. The organizations themselves are world-specific to Golarion, but the mechanics are portable.

The big issue is the philosophical difference, though. Birthright was there to mix Wargaming and RPGs... the rules available natively in Pathfinder are not oriented for that.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Their supplements Ultimate Battle and Ultimate War expand the mass combat system fairly well. The problem is that as variant rules, HeroLab is not set up to accommodate them well.

I have ultimate Battle coded in the 3PP pack. The only thing I couldn't do was directly change the name of a army size but I still had the new info display.

I am finishing up the last bit now for all the different racial abilities that give army bonuses.

 

[Silveras]

I have ultimate Battle coded in the 3PP pack. The only thing I couldn't do was directly change the name of a army size but I still had the new info display.

I am finishing up the last bit now for all the different racial abilities that give army bonuses.

So you were able to get things like the OV spilt into Melee and Ranged? That's hinted in Ultimate Battle, but more formally done in Ultimate War as I recall.

Ultimate Rulership is the bigger issue...
Changes to make some of the existing edict types work differently
New edit types with no table to display them on
New edit types that replace existing types (and work a little differently)
Changes to the population calculations for settlements (districts and buildings add different amounts based on the size of the settlement, in new categories Village / Town / City)

It is all really good stuff, but I think it will be hard to implement them.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

So you were able to get things like the OV spilt into Melee and Ranged? That's hinted in Ultimate Battle, but more formally done in Ultimate War as I recall.

Ranged is listed as situational text on the OV. This means it displays in HL and prints to paper.

Ultimate Rulership is the bigger issue...
Changes to make some of the existing edict types work differently
New edit types with no table to display them on
New edit types that replace existing types (and work a little differently)
Changes to the population calculations for settlements (districts and buildings add different amounts based on the size of the settlement, in new categories Village / Town / City)

It is all really good stuff, but I think it will be hard to implement them.

I have not gotten to UR yet and it will be some time for before I do. Mostly because I need the War stuff for my games but "rulership" stuff is not something my players are interested in. But I can create new tables, new components, and even new UI components if I need to. Done that already for Path of War. Mostly what it requires is "time" something I agree is in very short supply.

 

[Silveras]

Ranged is listed as situational text on the OV. This means it displays in HL and prints to paper.


I have not gotten to UR yet and it will be some time for before I do. Mostly because I need the War stuff for my games but "rulership" stuff is not something my players are interested in. But I can create new tables, new components, and even new UI components if I need to. Done that already for Path of War. Mostly what it requires is "time" something I agree is in very short supply.

Nice!

I think Ultimate Rulership will be a bear for reasons of time, as you mentioned.

Ultimate Commander also builds on Battle and War, by the way, with a "General-type" class and some modifications to the Troop type.