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Authoring Kit Updates Needed

chiefweasel

Well-known member
Hi all, just working with the editor and had a question questions. I know HL does not allow you to change the names of ability names in the editor, and in the authoring kits, its really tough. I am looking for an easier way to support more game systems. In this case Traveller. I would like to copy over the Pathfinder game system and basically but out what i don't need and use the rest.

So I guess the question I am asking is that is there any plans to update the authoring kit to allow better control over a system? Like if I could change the text of the abilities in PF to Traveller ones, I could easily code skills, and such to work off of it. But right now the only method I have is the authoring kit. It seems that a few simple changes to the editor could help to create nonD20 style games.

I am open for a discussion regarding this if anyone can help at all. Thanks.
 
Update authoring kit to allow better control?

You have complete and unbelievable control, but if you're only using the editor, then you're going to a bit disappointed.

You need to get your hands dirty on xml and scripting.

If you need assistance, there's the Hero Lab Authoring Wiki, while it is a bit behind, it's where you should start.

I had started on a Traveller 5 ruleset for Hero Lab, but have given up shortly after receiving my books from the Kickstarter.

I'd be glad to offer assistance where needed, but I'm just starting to learn it as well.


BoomerET
 
Hi all, just working with the editor and had a question questions. I know HL does not allow you to change the names of ability names in the editor, and in the authoring kits, its really tough. I am looking for an easier way to support more game systems. In this case Traveller. I would like to copy over the Pathfinder game system and basically but out what i don't need and use the rest.

So I guess the question I am asking is that is there any plans to update the authoring kit to allow better control over a system? Like if I could change the text of the abilities in PF to Traveller ones, I could easily code skills, and such to work off of it. But right now the only method I have is the authoring kit. It seems that a few simple changes to the editor could help to create nonD20 style games.

I am open for a discussion regarding this if anyone can help at all. Thanks.


As far as I know, they limit access to game systems to help prevent software piracy. Pathfinder source code isn't something they normally allow us to access, and due to the fact that hero lab is Pathfinder's Official character builder, I have serious doubts you'll be getting access to source code to modify for Traveler. I'm not an expert on the Traveler system, as I've never actually run it, but I was basically told if I wanted tabs similar to what appears in Pathfinder I'd have to build them from scratch and figure things out on my own. (Or in some cases I just got silence). I've managed to rebuild some of the tabs from Pathfinder (such as the Condition Tab) and rebuilt all the things I needed for Deathwatch from it. I had to spend hours studying the Kit Wiki and slowly building the things I wanted on that tab until it was finished. Best hope you've got is to look at the tabs from Pathfinder you want and figure out the source code to build from scratch. My recommendation would be to use something like EditPad to build your tabs, but be prepared to spend hours studying the code from Savage Worlds, 4e, and Alternity (yes you can access Alternity source code as I've recently discovered). This would be your best bet.
 
This is my point though. While the editor is fine for modifying existing system, the Authoring kit isn't helpful at all. If there were a method, like widgets, you could drop in to add tabs, or change text. things like that, you shouldnt have to reinvent the same items time and time again for each game syste, the screen, or attributes. I'm sure that LW doesnt write the code for a tab each time they do a different game system. Isnt that the purpose for OO programming?
 
This is my point though. While the editor is fine for modifying existing system, the Authoring kit isn't helpful at all. If there were a method, like widgets, you could drop in to add tabs, or change text. things like that, you shouldnt have to reinvent the same items time and time again for each game syste, the screen, or attributes. I'm sure that LW doesnt write the code for a tab each time they do a different game system. Isnt that the purpose for OO programming?

No they don't reinvent the wheel, you think I will once I finish Deathwatch? Now that I have a functional tab for most things I need, I can just copy and paste and make the necessary changes now. However, I will say that my code skills have improved greatly from learning to tinker around in xml as well. I've build entire data files from just raw xml and I feel pretty happy about that. For Pathfinder I am pretty sure they started with a copy of the existing game system for d20. Which Mathias has mentioned and is most likely your best bet. However, I can say that if I were making money off something I wouldn't want to give away all my secrets either. I understand the anti-piracy thing they're doing and I agree with it. Mathias and Aaron have been quite instrumental in helping guide me through data creation in XML, all you have to do is ask for help and wait a little while on the forums. It isn't that bad.
 
Ditto for the Castles & Crusades ruleset I'm working on. Started with the base, read the Wiki, asked questions here, and I must admit I'm quite proud of my work, I'm sure RavenX feels the same way.


BoomerET
 
Ditto for the Castles & Crusades ruleset I'm working on. Started with the base, read the Wiki, asked questions here, and I must admit I'm quite proud of my work, I'm sure RavenX feels the same way.


BoomerET

Very much so. Deathwatch turned out to be a much more complicated build than I initially thought it would be, but I've made enough effort on it and gotten it to a point I am happy with it. I just have to smooth out bugs and get a few more things implemented and it will be something truly special.
 
But Ravenx you did reinvent the wheel. Had all that code been available to you, you wouldn't have needed to create it. Now of course you can reuse it, but no the first time, even though it already existsed.

Mathias, I agree that the d20 stuff would help, but to be honest the d20 and PF editors can make a new game system using either of those systems as the core. I am curious about other systems such as a d6 system. Just changing the ability fields is not possible with the editor. If it were you could jury-rig something.

But something like a module that could be dropped in for abilities, like one module for d20, one module for d6 and so on. Some like what is done for web creation, you drop a wiget in and modify it to meet your needs. Now I know all this is very complicated, but Ravenx, how much time would you have saved if you didnt have to create all those screens? Not all of the users of the tool are programmers. We found this out with asking for help with the community files. I am not a programmer, and so with the authoring kit there is no way I can consider making/helping with new game systems. I can mess with the editor fine, but the two are seperate beasts.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not complaining about the product, I think the LW guys know me well enough by now to know that. I just asking a questions and wondering if maybe the authoring kit coould be looked at again to see if it could be simplified and made more user friendly.
 
But Ravenx you did reinvent the wheel. Had all that code been available to you, you wouldn't have needed to create it. Now of course you can reuse it, but no the first time, even though it already existsed.

Chiefweasel, think of it from a different perspective. If a teacher hands you all the answers to the test up front, what are you really learning?

My reasons for embarking on this little coding adventure is more than just building a game system. My goal was to dissect the compiler and see what made it work. To learn how it did things and how it works. Yes having the code available would have made things easier, and it still would simplify some things, but what would I have learned from the experience?

Simply doing a copy/paste doesn't tell me the mechanical aspects of what I'm doing, nor does it simplify the process of hunting for bugs and fixing things. It's like taking a .user file you created for pathfinder and dropping it into your 3.5 folder. It's not going to work without needing repairs, lots of repairs, some of which might be frustrating. Building it from scratch minimized the errors I ran into along the way. It is far easier to handle one bug here and there than to track down dozens of them all at once. Looking for fields that don't exist that still need to be created, etc.

For Shadowrun 5 from what I know Mathias has rebuilt the files from scratch. I'm not sure what parts of 4 he chose to recycle, but some things you still have to do from the ground up. Deathwatch has been a learning process for me. One with great benefits. I will be able to expand what I created to include Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader, but there will be some changes needed before I can add Black Crusade and Only War (due to the presence of a +30 for skills that wasn't present in previous iterations of the game system). I haven't even looked at the Dark Heresy system second edition beta so I have no idea what changes were made. For all I know I might have to scrap what I've done and start over to build a working 2e system for 40K rp.
 
Understood RavenX, but I am not looking to learn, I am looking to do. I'm not a programmer, never have been, but dont have the mindset for it. As such I don't/can't learn the compiler, I want to be able to create and do, much like I can in the editor. Its great that you want to learn the compiler, but the vast majority of users of HL don't. We dont have the background to even start that sort of thing.

But even the editor got a much needed upgrade going from d20 to PF. PF is so much easier to work with. That is the sort of thing I am looking/asking about for the authoring kit. For instance, shouldn't I just be able to define what die size/number values I want to use for abilities? Just a pull down menu with them listed. Or be able to rename the abilities, just the text of them.

With those you things you could most likely use the PF editor to jury-rig a game system like Traveller. Just by using the same tabs as PF does.

Just a thought.
 
chiefweasel, even what you're asking about for abilities is not something you should expect to be able to accomplish unless you have a basic knowledge of scripting. In every game I've seen, ability scores aren't just simple numbers - each game has ways you can modify them - for example, in pathfinder, you can add magic items to improve them, and you can improve them every 4 levels, and you can cast spells to improve them, and you can take ability score penalties, etc., etc. Every game has its own set of modifications that can be made, and every game handles the details of how those modifications interact with each other in its own way. There is no way that the complexity of ability scores can be reduced to a few drop-downs.
 
Understood RavenX, but I am not looking to learn, I am looking to do. I'm not a programmer, never have been, but dont have the mindset for it. As such I don't/can't learn the compiler, I want to be able to create and do, much like I can in the editor. Its great that you want to learn the compiler, but the vast majority of users of HL don't. We dont have the background to even start that sort of thing.

But even the editor got a much needed upgrade going from d20 to PF. PF is so much easier to work with. That is the sort of thing I am looking/asking about for the authoring kit. For instance, shouldn't I just be able to define what die size/number values I want to use for abilities? Just a pull down menu with them listed. Or be able to rename the abilities, just the text of them.

With those you things you could most likely use the PF editor to jury-rig a game system like Traveller. Just by using the same tabs as PF does.

Just a thought.

Not really, because a system like deathwatch or dark heresy would require serious changes. Looking at Pathfinder, I couldn't use the Psionics from Psionics unleashed to handle psychic powers in 40k. It just would not work. In my opinion, the kit wiki could use more examples of things, but without a basic knowledge of how the software works you would have a difficult time repurposing an existing piece of code.

I'm not a programmer by profession, chiefweasel, I'm a mathematician. Basic programming coursework was required in my major field of study so we could program mathematical algorithms, but hero lab is not a simple program. I'm not looking for eigenvalues to solve a problem involving electrons in quantum mechanics. I had to learn scripting before I could hack open the hood and start building a game system. You can repurpose the entirety of the skeleton files, but it can still take time. I'm 1.45 years into deathwatch and it's still unfinished as of yet.
 
Mathias, agreed with the fact that every game ssytem is different. But what you aere talking about in the last post are things that are dealt with in the Editor. Once I have a stat for an ability I can use the editor to apply all the changes and such as needed. The question i have occfur before that, for instance how can i change the text of the DEX ability to read AGI? Even if I didnt change any of the fuctionality at all of the ability, I would still need to use the authoring kit and code an entirely new game system, just to change a text field. That is tremedious amount of work just to change a text box.

Now I realize that you wouldnt want to release the code for each game system, and there are IP rights involved.

What I would like to see is the authoring kit more like the editor. With tabs that allow me to make changes, even if just cosmetic, to a game system as I create it.

For example, I created the Dragonstar files a while back using the PF editor. If the DEX was AGI for that gae system and no other changes were needed, I would not have been able to do the work. It would have required a programmer come in and create the panels and all the routines and code for everything, even though all that code already exists for the PF system. So a simple change like that would be a monumental effort and one beyond the capabilities of most of the people on the boards.

Ravenx, I'm glad that you are able to do the programming, its great that there are people on the boards that can and will create these files. But as yu stated, you're 1.45 years into the Deathwatch game ssystem and not done. Wouldnt have beeen better if you could have just clicked a few buttons and had half of that work done already?

And lets be honest, we're not talking about entering data, like skills, or spells, or feats, I am talking about just being able to set up the basics, just ike the Editors does now, but a little more expanded, so you could change texts fields, add a skill, add an ability (feat), add armor, add weapon, things like that. Then we could jump to the editor and add all the information in.
 
Ravenx, I'm glad that you are able to do the programming, its great that there are people on the boards that can and will create these files. But as yu stated, you're 1.45 years into the Deathwatch game system and not done. Wouldnt have beeen better if you could have just clicked a few buttons and had half of that work done already?
Not necessarily, I enjoy tinkering with things and figuring out how they work. Think of it this way, I've struggled at times to get this far, I admit that, but Mathias, Aaron, and Colen at times, have helped me when I asked for assistance. Granted they're not machines that pop out answers on demand, they are human and need sleep, food and such like every other living thing. The things they've taught me and that I've struggled to learn in coding this system will make future projects easier in the long haul. I can take the experience I gained in this system and apply it to something else later on. Easier isn't always better in my eyes. It cheapens the learning curve and makes your accomplishments less meaningful. When I get something working right in Deathwatch, I feel good about it. It's taken a long time to get progress to where it is, but consider that during the past year and a half that I've worked on this, I have also worked on projects for Lone Wolf Development as a data file author nearly the entire time, I've written a novel and been penning my own campaign setting using Pathfinder's rules as well which compiles over 20 years worth of personal notes into one tome (some of them I can barely still read what I wrote, the pages are yellowed horribly now). I've been quite the busy beaver this year. Deathwatch could have been done sooner if I had time to work on it exclusively, but having a job and other obligations makes that difficult.


And lets be honest, we're not talking about entering data, like skills, or spells, or feats, I am talking about just being able to set up the basics, just ike the Editors does now, but a little more expanded, so you could change texts fields, add a skill, add an ability (feat), add armor, add weapon, things like that. Then we could jump to the editor and add all the information in.

Adding skills, abilities, talents, traits, etc. doesn't take me as long as some people might think it does, chiefweasel. My typing speed is well above 120 words per minute. I can copy text from books into the editor rather quickly. However, my last couple weeks of work has been BUILDING the actual Editor for Deathwatch (which will likely be renamed 40K Roleplay sometime in the future). The Editor from the skeleton file has been difficult to build, but I've figured out most of it. I'd like more examples in the kit wiki for reference purposes, as I feel the 4e and Savage Worlds editor file is insufficient to learn everything I need, but I have Mathias here answering many of my questions as they arise. I'm still hacking apart the Deathwatch thread for unanswered questions as well.

Better examples of code in the kit wiki would more than make up for some issues, but one thing I've learned about hero lab is that even the compiler itself isn't 100% finished. There are still areas that our favorite team of code monkeys have to add to. I appreciate that they take time to answer questions, but I don't see a drag and drop solution as simpler. More examples of code to study is always useful, much in the way example problems in physics and mathematics help a student learn a concept that can be applied to more complicated problems. I just don't see a copy/paste solution as you'd like as a feasible solution, as you'd introduce so many errors into your data that you'd get overwhelmed trying to fix them (I'm speaking from experience too, I copied many 4e files into deathwatch to "re-purpose" them and it literally did not go well. It was honestly easier to start the data from scratch and build what I needed as I went along. There were less errors and issues that arose. As I stated before, it's easier to build a section of code, fix the issues that crop up immediately when reloading the compiler and then building more as you go. Now that I know what I'm doing with the construction process it is easier than I expected, but I had to learn to do it the hard way first.

You can't expect to teach someone to solve a quadratic polynomial with the quadratic formula if you don't teach them the formula and how to derive it.
 
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hey Ravenx, I think you are missing some of the items I am looking for, I am most likely not explaining it well. All I am really looking for is that the authoring kit to be more like the Editor. But with a few extra features, like beng able to replace text.
For instance, I could take the existing PF rules for HL and convert them to a Traveller system. The actual value of the ability is vaiable so that doesnt matter. I can input skills and create scripts that simulate the Traveller skills. Same for armor and weapons. I could jury-rig something, it wouldn't be pretty but it would be functional. But without writing a system from the ground up, I cant change CHR to Social. I should be able to make a small change like that.

On a side note, (This is playfully said, so please no nastiness intended). I disagree with your statement about the math formula. If this were true no discosvery would be possible. At some point the first person put it together with out a formula. The Babylonians were solving the quadratic problem in 2000BC before there was an equation.
 
Ya both need to stop writing novels, or at the very least put in a TL : DR line.

Pretty please
<grin>


BoomerET
 
But without writing a system from the ground up, I cant change CHR to Social. I should be able to make a small change like that.

In my opinion, what you are describing is not a small change. Ability scores are linked to nearly everything else in Pathfinder (and most other game systems), so removing or adding one is a major change to the game. For example, in Pathfinder, the Dex ability's modifier is linked to the AC, but there are caveats to that - like the Max dex from the armor you're wearing, and being flat-footed.

Charisma is linked to a lot of other things, too - for example, the starting Fame if you're using the Fame rules from Ultimate Campaign is equal to your Charisma modifier.

There's also the display issues - what if your character sheets, summary panels, main tabs, etc. have been arranged, so that on most monitors, everything fits, and there are no odd gaps in the positioning of everything. Changing the number of ability scores could potentially throw all the positioning out of place, meaning that some pieces of information weren't displayed to the user.
 
Oh, I agree. I'm sure its not a small thing to be done, in fact most likely even bigger then I imaging. I guess I looking for something like the changes made to the editor when it went from D20 ro PF. PF is a vast improvement over the D20 editor. So much more is automated instead of having to be scripted. It would just ne nice, and make coding easier if a few changes could be done.

For instance, you mentioned that CHR is tied to Fame rules. It would be nice to be able to brake the connection, or leave it in place simple not have it show up on the character sheet anyplace.

Sorry about thet BoomerET, is this short enough? lol
 
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