A Request to help with Monster Creation

[Theocrat]

As I recall, at last years GenCon there was supposed to be video regarding HL. I recall this barely from some forum posts. This year's GC was supposed to have PC's setup with HL for character creation. I don't know if this was done or not. I take it that in either case video was not done (or is sitting on someone's PC somewhere).

I spoke in the posting Need Help with HL Coding about what certain buttons are - Why is it called a bootstrap button? What is a Gizmo. I even made wisecracks about how I haven't heard someone being picked up by the bootstraps since my grandfather mentioned WW2. Same with Gizmo being a Gremlin. But none of those were answered.
I've really done as much as I can with the HL editor without knowing stuff. I did as much of Seeker of Secrets as possible - and even with some of Mathias's help - Boon Companion still doesn't work right (according to some in regards to familiars).

I just posted that I would like to make my Evolved Human class (a modified Paragon Class). I love HL and want to use it - but if I want a class that isn't in the program I either have to stop using it, or hope someone else thinks its just as useful. So far the second option hasn't panned out (as with SoS, nobody has stepped in to fix the glaring errors). I have convinced 5 of my Game Day/Home Game players to pick up HL. They all like it and are extremely glad that others are putting in the time and effort for the data sets - because even getting monsters to work correctly seem to be difficult (inclduing with the lack of a printable stat-block [see feature requests]).
So making it easy for a non 15+years [make that I haven't programmed since BASIC in 8th grade 1980 style] should be important. I should be able to make my class with some ease. As it sits, my Kingmaker character will no longer be a HL character - and thus the program is so much more useless. Without the full suite of items that are available for Pathfinder Society yet available, its usable, but only with the community datasets (and those are lacking all the fine details because it's difficult to program).
At the very least - can we change or give a solid impression of what a bootstrap is and why it's called Gizmo and Minion? Or do I have to research that Wiki page that doesn't seem to be as updated as it could be?

 

[rdevelyn]

Hi guys,

Firstly, thanks for everyone's feedback in this thread. We definitely appreciate it, regardless of whether it's good or bad for us.

If I could just briefly bring you back to my original question - I wasn't asking for a revolution of the editor, just a few little additions to the core or bestiary pathfinder module. Any chance?

Richard

 

[bodrin]

If I could just briefly bring you back to my original question - I wasn't asking for a revolution of the editor, just a few little additions to the core or bestiary pathfinder module. Any chance?

Richard

It was answered by Mathias

The problem with this sort of custom race is that once you're finished, you can't save it as a file that others can use. The only way to share it would be by saving the character, then transferring that saved character sheet.

Races created this way also couldn't be used as pre-reqs. You couldn't create a feat specifically for this race, for example.

Also, by the time this setup could duplicate all the options that the editor can, it would be just as daunting as the editor.

What you really started was a Thread requesting the option to simply add custom stuff easier without struggling to understand the code.

Which I would like to do but to echo others too I also enjoy understanding the code and achieving something after the hard work is satisfying.

As Colen Said HL supports a lot of game systems but I would counter the argument that just because D20 does things differently to COC or PFrpg that the Simple Vs. Advanced editor option would only be linked to the Core Rule set for each type of system regardless of what the user tried to achieve.

Six abilities in D20 govern the character and feats and skills round it out.
Eight abilities in CoC govern the character and Weapon Skills and General Skills round it out.

Similar mechanics different games rules.

 

[rdevelyn]

It was answered by Mathias

I'm not creating a race, I'm creating a monster. In this sense, it's the same as creating a character. If I want to make my monster a race, I can get to grips with the editor. If I want to re-use my monster, then I can import in the same way that I can re-use a character.

What you really started was a Thread requesting the option to simply add custom stuff easier without struggling to understand the code.

Alas.

I'm sure there is a debate to be had here - well, it's being had here :-| - but I also wanted the HL authors to consider making some simple changes that would make a big difference to those of us who want an easy way to create simple monsters.

Richard

 

[bodrin]

Hi there,

I wonder whether you might consider adding the following various bits and pieces to Hero Lab Pathfinder, maybe as part of the Bestiary add on, to allow us to create monsters without using the editor (in other words, much more easily!):

Classes, under Creature Types: Aberration to Vermin. Humanoid and Outsider would need three variants each (e.g. Humanoid(good Fortitude), etc).

Feats: Generic Ability(Str) to Generic Ability(Cha), where the characteristic determines the DC of the related saving throw. These feats would have to be free ones, unless you add the ability to add Special Abilities (though that I imagine would be more work for you). Being able to name the ability would be nice, as would being able to specify at-will to x/day.

Attacks: Bite through to Talons, maybe called Natural Attack (Bite), etc, to group them all together.

Adjustment: Class Skill (name).

What do you think?

Richard

Okay not a debate but a clarification on the question from your first post.
Note bold part, most of the contributers to this forum have asked for the same thing, "Much More Easily" but just not to apply it to Monsters

 

[rdevelyn]

Hi there,

I wonder whether you might consider adding the following various bits and pieces to Hero Lab Pathfinder, maybe as part of the Bestiary add on, to allow us to create monsters without using the editor (in other words, much more easily!):

Classes, under Creature Types: Aberration to Vermin. Humanoid and Outsider would need three variants each (e.g. Humanoid(good Fortitude), etc).

Feats: Generic Ability(Str) to Generic Ability(Cha), where the characteristic determines the DC of the related saving throw. These feats would have to be free ones, unless you add the ability to add Special Abilities (though that I imagine would be more work for you). Being able to name the ability would be nice, as would being able to specify at-will to x/day.

Attacks: Bite through to Talons, maybe called Natural Attack (Bite), etc, to group them all together.

Adjustment: Class Skill (name).

What do you think?

Richard

Note my bold part.

Richard

 

[rob]

Classes, under Creature Types: Aberration to Vermin. Humanoid and Outsider would need three variants each (e.g. Humanoid(good Fortitude), etc).

Feats: Generic Ability(Str) to Generic Ability(Cha), where the characteristic determines the DC of the related saving throw. These feats would have to be free ones, unless you add the ability to add Special Abilities (though that I imagine would be more work for you). Being able to name the ability would be nice, as would being able to specify at-will to x/day.

Attacks: Bite through to Talons, maybe called Natural Attack (Bite), etc, to group them all together.

Adjustment: Class Skill (name).

I'm coming a little bit late to party, so I've got some catching up to do. If I'm understanding this correctly, what you want is to be able to create a "Generic Monster" directly within Hero Lab. So let me run a concept past you and see whether this concept matches what you're looking for.

First of all, this monster would not be defined as its own race or even adapted from a monstrous race. It would be a one-shot, throw-away monster that could not be re-used without loading the portfolio in which it is ultimately saved. The customization options for the monster would be very basic in nature and would *NOT* provide the full range of customization that is available via the Editor. However, it would allow the creation of many monsters without any of the learning curve associated with the Editor.

When you are presented with the Configure Hero form, there would be a third option in the "Type" droplist. In addition to PC and NPC, there would be "Generic Monster" option. If this is selected, lots of changes would occur with the interface. Many tabs would disappear: Classes, Background, Armor, Magic, and Gear. In their place, a "Monster" tab would appear.

On the "Monster" tab, you could specify the generic monster type, armor rating, generic special abilities, and generic attacks. The generic monster type would confer basic adjustments. The generic special abilities would designate an ability score (to determine the DC), a custom name, and the frequency of use. The generic attacks would specify a custom name, combat bonuses, and damage. On the Skills tab, you would simply assign the skill ratings that you want for the monster.

That's the extent of what you could do. Nothing more. This would allow you to do lots of very "vanilla" monsters very quickly. However, the moment you wanted to do something "interesting" with the monster, you would have to use the Editor and create an appropriate race. For example, if you wanted to assign class levels, you would have to define a proper monstrous race.

The above could probably be done with a modicum of effort (days of work instead of weeks). However, it would have lots of limitations, since it would be an all-or-nothing situation.

Would the above concept be of use to you? What else would need to be added? If we can figure out something that's highly useful yet not a lot of work on our end, we can possibly juggle things around and get it added. As Colen pointed out, we can't do weeks of work on something without sacrificing other stuff. But a few days can possibly be managed.

Comments???

 

[rob]

You need to take out all Code reference terms, and make the editor UI friendly to a gamer using gaming terms.

For example of terms I am looking at the feat tab..

What the hell is a bootstrap? Gizmo? Minion? Custom expression? Do I need al that stuff? All I want to do is Make A feat that gives me a +4 bonus to X!...

It needs to be naturally intuitive that any gamer can just open it and know exactly what he/she needs to do.

Right now your editor is more geared to coders not gamers.. and not all gamers are coders. I could take the time to learn how to do it, but I don't have that time.

RPGXplorer was very Gamer friendly you knew exactly what you needed to do to make things!

Though this would require basically scrapping the whole thing and starting new, which I am sure you would not want to do.

The primary issue here is that Hero Lab is written to work for ALL games - not just d20. That's good and that's bad. It's good in that HL is able to readily support all the different game systems. It's bad in that all that, in order to achieve this versatility, everything is developed in an abstracted manner.

In RPGX, the internal code and therefore the Editor was focused specifically on how d20 worked. Consequently, everything was explicitly tied to the game system with regard to terminology and mechanics. That made using the Editor more obvious, but it also resulted in some severe limitations that RPGX encountered when users wanted to do something outside the scope of what the Editor allowed. So you have a tradeoff of doing basic stuff more easily versus allowing gamers to do just about anything they want. With Hero Lab, we opted for the latter, and we've been steadily working to make things progressively easier.

The terminology you cite above is all defined within the wiki: boostraps, gizmos, minions, etc. You can access the wiki from the Help menu within the Editor or via a link within the documentation. Those terms are basic building blocks that everything within Hero Lab is built upon. As such, it's important that they are understood if you want to do anything more sophisticated with HL.

Could the documentation be better on all this? Absolutely. As has been pointed out, we're probably too familiar with it all to do a good job of writing the documentation. Compounding this is the fact that we're software types and not writers by trade. Unfortunately, we're the ones who have to write it all.

If anyone out there wants to put together some better documentation and/or tutorials, we'd love you for it! [Read: we'll do our best to make you happy in return.]

 

[rob]

At the very least - can we change or give a solid impression of what a bootstrap is and why it's called Gizmo and Minion?

You'll find a pretty good description of all the various physical elements of a data file within the Structural Building Blocks section of the wiki. That page is below:
http://hlkitwiki.wolflair.com/index.php5/Structural_Building_Blocks

All of the particulars on what bootstraps are and how they conceptually work can be found in the wiki in the section on Bootstraps. That page is below:
http://hlkitwiki.wolflair.com/index.php5/Bootstraps

Other important sections that would be very beneficial to read include:

Data Manipulation Basics:
http://hlkitwiki.wolflair.com/index.php5/Data_Manipulation_Basics

The "Live" State:
http://hlkitwiki.wolflair.com/index.php5/The_"Live"_State

Once you've read these small sections of the wiki, please feel free to post any questions and we'll do our best to explain how things work.

 

[Dragnmoon]

Thanks for your Reply Rob, but I just don't have the time or the energy to learn how to use your Editor as is, beyond the simple stuff I have already done with it.

I am just aggravated because you guys are basically the only game in town, but I have had better experience with past Character generation Programs.

As a Character generator it works just fine, but as a DM when I need to input creatures and NPCs I find just way too many errors with your Data and basic way your system outputs stuff, and it is just not intuitive enough to be able to fix that, which is not my experience with other Programs like this in the past.

 

[rdevelyn]

First of all, this monster would not be defined as its own race or even adapted from a monstrous race. It would be a one-shot, throw-away monster that could not be re-used without loading the portfolio in which it is ultimately saved. The customization options for the monster would be very basic in nature and would *NOT* provide the full range of customization that is available via the Editor. However, it would allow the creation of many monsters without any of the learning curve associated with the Editor.

Indeed, though you could import it from a portfolio, so you could save all your monsters in portfolios and do it that way.

When you are presented with the Configure Hero form, there would be a third option in the "Type" droplist. In addition to PC and NPC, there would be "Generic Monster" option. If this is selected, lots of changes would occur with the interface. Many tabs would disappear: Classes, Background, Armor, Magic, and Gear. In their place, a "Monster" tab would appear.

I wasn't thinking of any changes in the interface at all.

Two things that you point out that I missed out is a basic race and natural armour. So with that in mind, what I would need would be:

1) A "generic monster" race added in as a race, which does nothing.
2) The various "monster" classes added as classes.
3) The various natural attacks added in as attacks.
4) Six generic special ability feats, named if possible and selectable more than once if possible, with the different characteristics for DCs, added in as generic monster feats.
5) A natural armour adjustement (is it there already - I haven't checked).
6) A "class skill" adjustment.

That's it. All the other tabs work exactly the same way. A monster is just like creating a PC with levels in "animal" or whatever.

Richard

 

[risner]

I am just aggravated because you guys are basically the only game in town, but I have had better experience with past Character generation Programs.

creatures and NPCs I find just way too many errors with your Data and basic way your system outputs stuff, and it is just not intuitive enough to be able to fix that, which is not my experience with other Programs like this in the past.

I've had a lot of experience with past char gen programs. I concluded the concept of a char gen program was not possible to do (experience with etools, pcgen, rpgxplorer, excel sheets, etc.)

Since I found HL, I've found the flexibility far out ways any difficulty understanding how to do X, Y, Z. There are few things that have never been done before and those that have never been done before are fairly quickly answered on the forums.

I'm sorry your experience is so poor, maybe you could post what issues you are running into and we (other users) or they (HL staff) could help?

 

[chiefweasel]

Withe advent of the Beastary I think you can turn any monster in a character and assign classes and such to it.

 

[rdevelyn]

I have the bestiary, actually, and although what you say is true, you cannot add levels in "monster" classes such as "undead".

I know that monsters don't progress this way in Pathfinder, however you need this in order to create a monster from scratch (sans Editor).

Richard

 

[risner]

I have the bestiary, actually, and although what you say is true, you cannot add levels in "monster" classes such as "undead".

Those are not classes, they are considered additional HD. IIRC there is a way to do so (add additional hit dice.)

If not, you can just create a new monster (copy a similar creature) and change the number of HD it has, add/remove abilities etc.

 

[rob]

One other thing if it requires code to be able to do it, then it is wrong!

I should be able to do everything within the game rules by the editor.

If we make everything selectable from a list, like RPGX did, then we suffer the same problem as RPGX. Namely, we handle 80% of things easily and flat-out can't handle the other 20%. Since the game is constantly evolving - by Paizo, 3PPs, and GMs adding their own creations - that split steadily skews over time towards 70/30 and then 60/40. We opted for an approach that would let users add just about anything they wanted within the basic framework of the game so that the ratio is 99/1. The tradeoff is that there is a learning curve involved.

Having point-and-click simplicity for everything would be great, but so much of Pathfinder content centers on special case handling that fundamentally defies that simplicity. We had to start with a versatile and powerful engine underneath that could actually handle all the crazy stuff in the game and that 3PPs/GMs think up.

With the engine in place underneath, we've been steadily streamlining and simplifying things, and there are more improvements planned for the future. One of these days, we'll have a hybrid solution in place that provides simplicity where possible and all the flexibility for when special handling is needed. We're not there yet, but that's what we're working towards.

As a Character generator it works just fine, but as a DM when I need to input creatures and NPCs I find just way too many errors with your Data and basic way your system outputs stuff, and it is just not intuitive enough to be able to fix that, which is not my experience with other Programs like this in the past.

Could you please elaborate on the "way too many errors with your Data" comment? If you could point out these errors, we can make sure to get them fixed.

The same goes for the "way too many errors with... basic way your system outputs stuff". This is a vague generalization that doesn't match the feedback we get from most users, so I'd appreciate some specifics. That way, we can make a point to address the issues you've encountered.

 

[Nikmal]

Rob,
Because of the learning curve with the editor, have you ever thought about doing an actual video? I know I have asked this in other threads but it was not addressed by an official from the company.

I know that you guys have put out the tutorials and the like but the way they are written, it is as if it was written for computer developers. I know that you guys are programmers and that you are not writers per se and that the way that the tutorials are written is because you are programmers

If you guys can't do the video, is there any way you guys could hire someone to do it? Tab by tab and button and field by field

I am sorry if I am sounding like a broken record but I REALLY want to see a good understanding of the editor and right now while it might seem easy for some for others it is a greater learning curve then they are truly able to do. A Video, in a plain language and terminology that the average joe with no computer experience can understand I think would go a LONG way to making it easier to use!

BTW by doing the video, you could take more time on the simplicity aspect of the editor or not, But with the video, people are going to be able to understand it quite a bit better then before

Thanks in advance!!

 

[Mathias]

The same goes for the "way too many errors with... basic way your system outputs stuff". This is a vague generalization that doesn't match the feedback we get from most users, so I'd appreciate some specifics. That way, we can make a point to address the issues you've encountered.

Rob, he's posted a number of them in the Pathfinder Bug Reports - version 4.4 thread.

Dragonmoon, you're correct, we cannot currently match the Paizo statblock format exactly, but hopefully we're close enough that the statblocks we output are usable and useful. We absolutely intend to keep improving the statblock as time goes on.

 

[Dragnmoon]

Could you please elaborate on the "way too many errors with your Data" comment? If you could point out these errors, we can make sure to get them fixed.

The same goes for the "way too many errors with... basic way your system outputs stuff". This is a vague generalization that doesn't match the feedback we get from most users, so I'd appreciate some specifics. That way, we can make a point to address the issues you've encountered.

I have elaborated many times in a few threads, and after getting my last answer...oh that would be too hard to fix on that specific issue is when I starting getting aggravated.

but a few of issues that annoy me the most are.

The inability to print out directly Monster Stats in the same format as the Bestiary *Copy paste text format is not the same!*

The inability to customize the Character sheet, that I know you are working on.

The poor output on Character sheets when you are using two weapons or adding a natural attack with a weapon, not seeing it at all.

the default to adding unarmed attacks to all stat blocks, that annoys me a lot.

your redefining what the Base Attack stat is in a stat block, You don't add Size modifier to that, you never have and it is confusing as hell because you do.

The mistakes in almost every Bestiary entry you added which is too many to define here! that hurts the most because I think I overpaid for such an error filled data set.

What I like the most is that you support Pathfinder Society, and I have gotten a lot of use out of your HTML output recently.


Edit: I see Mathias pointed out I have been being specific.. thanks.

 

[Dragnmoon]

Rob, he's posted a number of them in the Pathfinder Bug Reports - version 4.4 thread.

Dragonmoon, you're correct, we cannot currently match the Paizo statblock format exactly, but hopefully we're close enough that the statblocks we output are usable and useful. We absolutely intend to keep improving the statblock as time goes on.

That is good to know, because as a GM, that is what is hurting me the most. as of now I cannot rely on your program because of this problem when it comes to creatures and NPCs. Though like I said, it works great as a player.