Fishing for Rumors

Duggan said:

I suspect the occasional reboots are necessary for revenue, though. First of all, not everyone is going to use supplemental books and modules, so there's some segment of the population whose sales are more or less lost forever after the first sale. That one is, in part, one of the reasons most systems on HLC get only sporadic updates since it's not really driving new sales. Secondly, and this is not something I have any data to support, people seem more likely to pirate or secondhand supplemental items compared to the core book, where they like having a physical copy to pass around to the players. Lastly, the profit margin often isn't there. A single module requires a lot of work, artwork, etc, and then retails for a few dollars. The core book costs more to produce, but will likely sell more copies.

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You're definitely right that new editions are a commercial necessity. However the successful ones are evolutions not new games with the same name.

2e AD&D was very different from first but clearly an evolution and things like THACO was just putting a name on something that had existed in First.

3rd was still just adding more systems and refining what already existed (same for 3.5)

4e was not. They tried to turn D&D into a pen and paper MMO with each class having a tightly defined role. People hated it and it did not sell well.

PF1 was a step forward from 3.5 but not that much of one. Renaming some skills and other stuff that really had little effect.

PF2 is not an evolution of PF1. The systems that had been stable and worked well not just throughout PF1 but stretching back to 1e AD&D were changed just for the sake of changing them. The systems that did not work in PF1, combat maneuvers to name a glaring example, got little if any attention. It may yet succeed but I strongly doubt it. There are going to be lots of people like me and Maidhc O Casain who have too much money in PF1 to move.

Oh Paizo oh LWD, dark days indeed

Well, I'll echo the core stuff sells more. I picked up the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and first monster book for 5e. And the equivalent for Starfinder. I'll likely do the same with PF2 at some point.

But our group is sticking with the original edition of Pathfinder. We literally have all the books, and between the group have 2-6 copies of each of the hard covers (one of my players also has a full set, others have some here some there).

Path of War (and PoW: Expanded), Ultimate Psionics, and Spheres of Power, Spheres of Might, Champions of the Spheres (and the upcoming Ultimate Spheres of Power) are also rather popular.

Far too much of an investment to move on, just because there's a new system. Sure, we were in a similar point with AD&D 2nd, and with 3.0/3.5, 4e, and moved on eventually. But we didn't do that edition hop until we had both run out of content for purchase of the system and actually played all the content.

I have 29 campaigns I'd like to run, with the Pathfinder 1e ruleset. Of those 12 are ideas of campaigns I'd like to do and the rest are store bought (or more are actually Kickstarter supported) full campaigns or lengthy adventures that can be added to, to create a 1st to 20th run.

On top of that, two others in the group have tried their hand at being the DM, so they will likely want to run something themselves too. I know, after we finish "The Blight", one of the two has a campaign he wrote for us which will be next, and then my ambitious campaign after that one. In his case, he's modifying a 1st edition adventure for our early levels, then will run a campaign (and modify to PF1e rules) he wrote for 4e but that we never played, then something that was written for DnD 5e (again modified to PF1). So, he's plundering other editions, and actually the entirety of his 1st-25th campaign (gestalt/mythic) will be originally written for not PF1 but be played using the PF1 system.

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My next campaign (one of the 12 that are my own), will be ambitious. I have the idea for two campaigns really, one starting at lower levels (maybe 3rd, just because it's more fun once you have a few more options), and will very loosely follow the original Mistborn novels. Loose, in that the aren't Mistborn or the need to consume metals, but a dystopian world with a ruler that many take to be a god.

Eventually the group takes him out, but he was holding a darkness at bay. Then the second campaign, starting around 20th, with the same characters and going to 50th... a kind of Time of Troubles thing, with powerful beings (the group included) trying to be the survivors and thus the Pantheon of Gods going forward in that campaign.

It will of course have to be Gestalt rules, and upon taking out that first "final" boss, the group will start to become mythic.
Why not use all the systems?

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Anyway, tons of material for this first edition of Pathfinder; most campaigns or adventure paths take us 1.5 to 2 years of real time to do.

We play weekly, but modify encounters to be a challenge for a group of power gamers, and add things, tweak things, etc.

Too much content, not done, to move on.

I didn't realize there was so much hate for PF2. I like it. 5e is okay, but doesn't have the breadth or depth I've become used to from 3e, 4e, and PF. Once you've played one rogue or sorcerer, it feels like you've played them all. The system has been out for years and still feels underdeveloped.

That said, I have no plan or desire to support LWD going forward. They have really dropped the ball. Just like with the RW release, HLO isn't stable, doesn't have the expected functionality, and they're already trying to cram more promised functionality when they can barely support the products they already have. I understand that any business has to adapt to the changing market conditions, or fail. Paizo is taking a risk that seems to be paying off. Lone Wolf? At this point, I have no reason to care.

I tried to read the PF2 core rule book. I wanted to give it a chance because I wanted to use HLO but I just can't.

Goblins are a core race?

Ability score points are handed out like candy?

But due to the reworking of skills ability scores also seem somewhat irrelevant now?

This is just some very weird and very bad smelling garbage.

Like some of the other people mentioned I simply have too much PF1 content left to run as well. I could play PF1 for the next 10 years and still not have run out of content and campaigns.

Realm Works was a god send, I'm mostly sad it got dropped in the chaos of all this new edition hullabaloo.

Raistlindantilus said:

I tried to read the PF2 core rule book. I wanted to give it a chance because I wanted to use HLO but I just can't.

Goblins are a core race?

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I See nothing wrong with this.

Ability score points are handed out like candy?

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PF1 handed them out like candy, PF2 reigned them in.
Max ability score int PF2 is 24, this is a level 20 with the best magic item. My PF1 wizard had a 30 int at level 16, and that is not the maximum by any stretch.

But due to the reworking of skills ability scores also seem somewhat irrelevant now?

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Still relevant for skills.

This is just some very weird and very bad smelling garbage.

Like some of the other people mentioned I simply have too much PF1 content left to run as well. I could play PF1 for the next 10 years and still not have run out of content and campaigns.

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It is different and I have played it a bit, it doesn't seem anywhere near garbage to me, but people need their hyperbole. I too have a lot of PF1 that I will continue to play for quite a while, but I suspect I will be merging in some PF2 stuff at some point.

Ability boosts at 2 points per ability being handed out in chunks at levels 5, 10, etc is just excessive.

Admittedly I didn't read into the skills chapter to confirm if abilities were going to be relevant there but it seemed it was dropped in favor of the untrained, trained, expert, master, legendary mechanic.

My biggest gripe is goblins as a core race and removal of half-elf and half-orc as core races.

It is generally understood that core races are to be the most common PC races in the setting that players can typically play unrestricted by the GM.

This means any PF2 world that is consistent with the CRB now has to include civilized goblins just hanging out in taverns, running shops, etc otherwise players playing goblins regularly and without restriction, as core race implies, would not make any sense.

And where are the half elves and half orcs? These should be common races, half elves moreso than half orcs perhaps but nonetheless they should be far more commonly encountered than goblins.

It's all too obvious they decided to remove half-orcs because of the rapey implications, then removed half-elves to make the motivation for removing half-orcs less obvious, then with half-orcs and half-elves removed they were short on races so stuck goblins back in as an ad-hoc addition to fill out the ranks of playable core races.

Blech

Raistlindantilus said:

Ability boosts at 2 points per ability being handed out in chunks at levels 5, 10, etc is just excessive.

Admittedly I didn't read into the skills chapter to confirm if abilities were going to be relevant there but it seemed it was dropped in favor of the untrained, trained, expert, master, legendary mechanic.

My biggest gripe is goblins as a core race and removal of half-elf and half-orc as core races.

It is generally understood that core races are to be the most common PC races in the setting that players can typically play unrestricted by the GM.

This means any PF2 world that is consistent with the CRB now has to include civilized goblins just hanging out in taverns, running shops, etc otherwise players playing goblins regularly and without restriction, as core race implies, would not make any sense.

And where are the half elves and half orcs? These should be common races, half elves moreso than half orcs perhaps but nonetheless they should be far more commonly encountered than goblins.

It's all too obvious they decided to remove half-orcs because of the rapey implications, then removed half-elves to make the motivation for removing half-orcs less obvious, then with half-orcs and half-elves removed they were short on races so stuck goblins back in as an ad-hoc addition to fill out the ranks of playable core races.

Blech

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The goblin thing caused quite a few complaints but it was ignored Paizo knows best dontcha know?

Half elves and half orcs are still in the game it just isn't quite as obvious. They are now heritages of human.

kbs666 said:

The goblin thing caused quite a few complaints but it was ignored Paizo knows best dontcha know?

Half elves and half orcs are still in the game it just isn't quite as obvious. They are now heritages of human.

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Ah, well thanks for clearing that up at least.

Raistlindantilus said:

World Anvil, YARPS and others are all web-based. What happens if you put years of work into a web based campaign manager and the website shuts down? I don't really understand why web-based seems to be the go-to model when its a terrible idea long-term and campaigns tend to be very long term endeavors.

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This is a definite concern.

WeatherMaster was an amazing tool (still is if you rig a work-around) that was locally installed but it needed to check a live server for a valid license key and when they disappeared, people were left hanging.

Toblakai said:

The last I checked HLO is not focused on just PF2E it also has Starfinder and Shadowrun.

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You wanna talk about some angry gamers, talk to players of Shadowrun. My group tried to make the switch to it's 6th ed and it's just a dumpster fire. They changed several core systems from 5th edition but then just copy pasted the rules from the old edition, several instances where they reference things that have been removed or just didn't make it into the book. The forums are ablaze with people calling for petitions to Topps to revoke the rights from Catalyst Game Labs and give it to someone else.

Not here to rant on Shadowrun too hard, just sad that when I saw they were supporting the game I was hoping they would get some revenue from it.

Do not even get me started on Catalyst. It's like they can pay attention to Battletech for 1 month every other year. They have this awesome Clan starter box coming out that they had a huge kickstarter for. Any follow up? Crickets. I know they aren't swimming in cash but they did nothing when the Battletech game came out and was a respectable hit and now Mechwarrior V is coming and still very little is going on.

On Shadowrun has Harebrained Schemes said anything about more Shadowrun games coming? I don't remember the last time I had so much fun playing a computer RPG. I was mad they were all so short.

BlMage said:

You wanna talk about some angry gamers, talk to players of Shadowrun. My group tried to make the switch to it's 6th ed and it's just a dumpster fire. They changed several core systems from 5th edition but then just copy pasted the rules from the old edition, several instances where they reference things that have been removed or just didn't make it into the book. The forums are ablaze with people calling for petitions to Topps to revoke the rights from Catalyst Game Labs and give it to someone else.

Not here to rant on Shadowrun too hard, just sad that when I saw they were supporting the game I was hoping they would get some revenue from it.

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There's a lot of people not happy, but no one is starting petitions.

Raistlindantilus said:

Ability boosts at 2 points per ability being handed out in chunks at levels 5, 10, etc is just excessive.

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You've said this twice, but are ignoring the fact that stat boosting items are now high level gear and limited to only 2 points in one stat per character. A 2e character will be better at more things, but the cap will be much lower than a 1e character.