i understand what your saying bj, but the needed features (printing/custom data) aren't going to be in when it launches. and i bought into realm works kick starter 4 years ago and I'm still waiting on features that were promised in the kick starter... at the rate that you've added promised realm works features makes me skeptical and shy of supporting another project by lwd
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Starfinder
- Thread starter karpomatic
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i understand what your saying bj, but the needed features (printing/custom data) aren't going to be in when it launches. and i bought into realm works kick starter 4 years ago and I'm still waiting on features that were promised in the kick starter... at the rate that you've added promised realm works features makes me skeptical and shy of supporting another project by lwd
Winterfyre
Member
Yes, we will absolutely be giving a discount! If you purchase a year subscription it's all of $24.99. We want to keep the rates as low as possible, our goal is NOT to charge a lot, we aren't doing content prices differently, it will still cost the same as Hero Lab Classic and you will have access to the Classic version as well if you want to use the files in both when possible! You buy the system once, you buy the content once. This isn't a "cash grab". We are charging a very small fee for using our service so that we can continue to provide you with character creation and campaign management services far into the future.
In the case of Starfinder that's $24.99 a year to use the data packages we bought. If we don't pay we lose access to all of it. If your server costs jump, or you just get greedy and you double or even triple that how do we recoup the money we invested in data packs? At that point you would be blackmailing / extorting us to pay whatever fee you choose or lose access to easily hundreds of dollars of data packages.
What happens if your server goes down? Do we get a refund for having to cancel our game session?
What happens when your server gets hacked? Will all of our data be backed up? Will you carry the costs to restore any identities that are stolen as a result?
What happens if your cost increases and that 24.99 jumps to 49.99 or 69.99? Will you refund the cost of the data packages if we decide to discontinue because the cost is to high?
You are forcing us to assume a LOT of risk here, with no real reward to compensate us for that risk.
Why is there even a fee to migrate to HLO? If the data packs are the same and everything is stored server side migrations should consist of nothing more then checking a box on our account page "Yes I'll pay your extortion fee to access the data I bought via your online only service"
If data sets aren't the same and you are required to run double the development for every new package, then you don't honestly expect anyone to believe you'll eat the cost of developing everything twice, with no real increase in revenue do you? So the question is how long before you stop developing new packs for Pathfinder in HLC and force everyone to HLO if they want new content?
One last thought. Starfinder would work just fine on HLC, you simply chose to use it to strong arm everyone into your HLO product.
So telling someone you're giving them a discount when you charge them an ADDED 24.99 a year for something that should have and could have been done under the existing system without that 24.99 isn't a discount, its an added fee.
One last thought. Starfinder would work just fine on HLC, you simply chose to use it to strong arm everyone into your HLO product.
i might also add that you state in the faq or somewhere that you need herolab online to take advantage of the multi party assets ie ships... to that i point to your current data package that contains the ultimate campaign material for pathfinder. in this you add an additional mode to the character creation that lets you build settlements using the rules presented in the ultimate campaign book. (this is similar to whats needed for ship building in star finder and could easily be converted if that package was not copy protected and unable to be edited) so in effect that argument in the faq is negated unless there is further functionality you have not stated)
i might also add that you state in the faq or somewhere that you need herolab online to take advantage of the multi party assets ie ships... to that i point to your current data package that contains the ultimate campaign material for pathfinder. in this you add an additional mode to the character creation that lets you build settlements using the rules presented in the ultimate campaign book. (this is similar to whats needed for ship building in star finder and could easily be converted if that package was not copy protected and unable to be edited) so in effect that argument in the faq is negated unless there is further functionality you have not stated)
They stated that one ship could be accessed by multiple players at the same time. I don't think the settlement building in HLC does that.
I'm intensely disappointed in this plan if managing Starfinder via Hero Lab Online requires the purchase of a package AND a monthly fee. I am similarly disappointed if offline use, particularly digital and physical printing, isn't going to be available.
I've invested a lot of money in the Hero Lab application to continue enjoying its use in tandem with the Pathfinder RPG. Based on what I'm reading, I'm NOT eager to open my wallet for what comes next.
I've invested a lot of money in the Hero Lab application to continue enjoying its use in tandem with the Pathfinder RPG. Based on what I'm reading, I'm NOT eager to open my wallet for what comes next.
I'm intensely disappointed in this plan if managing Starfinder via Hero Lab Online requires the purchase of a package AND a monthly fee. I am similarly disappointed if offline use, particularly digital and physical printing, isn't going to be available.
I've invested a lot of money in the Hero Lab application to continue enjoying its use in tandem with the Pathfinder RPG. Based on what I'm reading, I'm NOT eager to open my wallet for what comes next.
I agree that not offering a reduced feature version for HLC is a mistake. I know that there are a couple people I play with that probably won't be willing to subscribe, but I was already planning on gifting a year to them. (FYI BJ, you should make gift certificates easy to buy...)
Can I add my voice to those who are disappointed that Starfinder will be HLO only? I read the early post in this thread as clearly indicating that Starfinder would be in HLC by the end of this month (ie. today). The clarification that it would be HLO only (and delayed) only came post-Gen Con and some time after some posts that were fairly disrespectful to paying customers about being unable to answer questions for a few days after Gen Con.
I have paid literally hundreds of dollars to Lone Wolf Development over the years and I find Herolab brilliant for Pathfinder. My meagre posts on these boards are a testament to the fact that I am (was) 100% happy with the software and additional packages I have paid for. This episode, however, leaves a bad taste in my mouth and so I wanted to post here to express my disappointment in LWD. I cannot see me subscribing to HLO and so when, inevitably, the forced migration to the online software comes further down the line, LWD will lose me as a customer. From reading these boards I am not the only one who feels this way so I would suggest a change of direction is in order, for the sake of the business if nothing else.
I have paid literally hundreds of dollars to Lone Wolf Development over the years and I find Herolab brilliant for Pathfinder. My meagre posts on these boards are a testament to the fact that I am (was) 100% happy with the software and additional packages I have paid for. This episode, however, leaves a bad taste in my mouth and so I wanted to post here to express my disappointment in LWD. I cannot see me subscribing to HLO and so when, inevitably, the forced migration to the online software comes further down the line, LWD will lose me as a customer. From reading these boards I am not the only one who feels this way so I would suggest a change of direction is in order, for the sake of the business if nothing else.
talsharien
Well-known member
In the case of Starfinder that's $24.99 a year to use the data packages we bought. If we don't pay we lose access to all of it. If your server costs jump, or you just get greedy and you double or even triple that how do we recoup the money we invested in data packs? At that point you would be blackmailing / extorting us to pay whatever fee you choose or lose access to easily hundreds of dollars of data packages.
What happens if your server goes down? Do we get a refund for having to cancel our game session?
What happens when your server gets hacked? Will all of our data be backed up? Will you carry the costs to restore any identities that are stolen as a result?
What happens if your cost increases and that 24.99 jumps to 49.99 or 69.99? Will you refund the cost of the data packages if we decide to discontinue because the cost is to high?
You are forcing us to assume a LOT of risk here, with no real reward to compensate us for that risk.
Why is there even a fee to migrate to HLO? If the data packs are the same and everything is stored server side migrations should consist of nothing more then checking a box on our account page "Yes I'll pay your extortion fee to access the data I bought via your online only service"
If data sets aren't the same and you are required to run double the development for every new package, then you don't honestly expect anyone to believe you'll eat the cost of developing everything twice, with no real increase in revenue do you? So the question is how long before you stop developing new packs for Pathfinder in HLC and force everyone to HLO if they want new content?
One last thought. Starfinder would work just fine on HLC, you simply chose to use it to strong arm everyone into your HLO product.
So telling someone you're giving them a discount when you charge them an ADDED 24.99 a year for something that should have and could have been done under the existing system without that 24.99 isn't a discount, its an added fee.
These are all very interesting points that perhaps need addressing!
I saw nothing disrespectful from LW? They got back from Gencon and were sick and didn't get stuff up, seriously? That's a real minor point to complain about.
Online is inevitable. This is the way everything is going. I really only go to one con a year and my cell works fine there. Even if it didn't it's not that big of a deal, just print a copy before you go to the con.
The online excites me, I am really looking forward to the potential collaboration points:
I cast <Buff Spell> and can apply it to all party members.
I am the DM and can see the characters current stats including all buffs in the tactical console.
Party loot tracking and sharing.
++ more I am sure I am not considering.
Online is inevitable. This is the way everything is going. I really only go to one con a year and my cell works fine there. Even if it didn't it's not that big of a deal, just print a copy before you go to the con.
The online excites me, I am really looking forward to the potential collaboration points:
I cast <Buff Spell> and can apply it to all party members.
I am the DM and can see the characters current stats including all buffs in the tactical console.
Party loot tracking and sharing.
++ more I am sure I am not considering.
These are all very interesting points that perhaps need addressing!
Maybe a couple are, most are not. I mean.. backups and hacks, do you require all companies you interact online with to tell you exactly what they do for these things?
Price changes? That's another non-issue, it's a service, why in the hell would they refund the money if the price went up. Let's get some real questions answered not these useless ones.
All the shared stuff only works if everyone has a licence for Hero Lab Online. That won't work if only half the party has the program because not everyone that plays uses the program.I saw nothing disrespectful from LW? They got back from Gencon and were sick and didn't get stuff up, seriously? That's a real minor point to complain about.
Online is inevitable. This is the way everything is going. I really only go to one con a year and my cell works fine there. Even if it didn't it's not that big of a deal, just print a copy before you go to the con.
The online excites me, I am really looking forward to the potential collaboration points:
I cast <Buff Spell> and can apply it to all party members.
I am the DM and can see the characters current stats including all buffs in the tactical console.
Party loot tracking and sharing.
++ more I am sure I am not considering.
IconoclasticScream
Well-known member
The online excites me, I am really looking forward to the potential collaboration points:
I cast <Buff Spell> and can apply it to all party members.
I am the DM and can see the characters current stats including all buffs in the tactical console.
Party loot tracking and sharing.
++ more I am sure I am not considering.
The mere possibility of that sort of thing makes the online model so enticing, and totally worth the price of admission.
I saw nothing disrespectful from LW? They got back from Gencon and were sick and didn't get stuff up, seriously? That's a real minor point to complain about.
I'm afraid I don't agree. If you're in business and make a major announcement about the product you're selling then you need plans to deal with customer questions. That includes contingency plans for issues like sick absence. I don't know how big LWD is but I cannot be alone in having paid hundreds of dollars for products which suggests several employees at least. If you announce a big change in the business model then you need to be prepared to deal with the queries that follow or you shouldn't be in business (and won't be for very long).
My issue is wider than that though. This thread includes a post very high up that says Starfinder will be available by the end of August. There is no other way to read that post and pre-Gen Con that had to mean in HLC. To post a clarification weeks later is very poor.
Ultimately, every customer has to make a decision on whether the product is worth it when the new model is rolled out. I suspect I will decide it isn't.
Think about the market they will be able to open up to also. Right now Hero Lab is not useful for the emerging market in the rpg industry. There are ALOT of people playing over the internet. There are people playing around a table with a few member playing from the other side of the country.
You make Hero Lab work over the network and you instantly open up the tool to that market. I suspect this move will make for quite a few new members of our community. I'm sure it will result in some leaving too. But I'd wager the positives will out weight the negatives for LWD.
You make Hero Lab work over the network and you instantly open up the tool to that market. I suspect this move will make for quite a few new members of our community. I'm sure it will result in some leaving too. But I'd wager the positives will out weight the negatives for LWD.
Maybe a couple are, most are not. I mean.. backups and hacks, do you require all companies you interact online with to tell you exactly what they do for these things?
Yes. How else would I fairly judge whether or not I want to do business with them?
If I don't know and can't find the answers, I assume the worst and act accordingly.
Yes. How else would I fairly judge whether or not I want to do business with them?
If I don't know and can't find the answers, I assume the worst and act accordingly.
So what are Lone Wolfs hacking and backup policy regarding HeroLab purchases?
Could be here, but I haven't seen it.
All the shared stuff only works if everyone has a licence for Hero Lab Online. That won't work if only half the party has the program because not everyone that plays uses the program.
Yep I agree, I am currently a part of about 7 ongoing adventure paths, of the 7 only there are a mix of about 10 people playing. Of those ten only 1 doesn't own Hero Lab (he only plays in 1 of the APs). Of the remaining there is probably only 1 person maybe 2 that probably won't subscribe, I plan on buying them the first year as a gift.
I have an extra tablet and license that the one holdout can use, and he's tried it, so if I can get him to use it I'm all good in all my games.
These features are obviously useless for PFS/SFS since it is a random group of people playing and not a steady group.
So what are Lone Wolfs hacking and backup policy regarding HeroLab purchases?
Could be here, but I haven't seen it.
Well right now, it doesn't matter to me so much, because I have everything stored locally. All my game systems are on local storage. All my data packages are on local storage. All my profiles are on local storage.
If they suffer a data loss, I can keep going as if nothing happened.
Well right now, it doesn't matter to me so much, because I have everything stored locally. All my game systems are on local storage. All my data packages are on local storage. All my profiles are on local storage.
If they suffer a data loss, I can keep going as if nothing happened.
Until you need to switch computers or you upgrade your PC/windows and need to renew your license.
But you said you don't deal with a company that doesn't have a policy for hacking and backup, but you have Herolab, so you obviously break that rule.
So it seems you trust LWD here, so there is no point in not trusting them for HLO.
I won't be dropping money on Hero Lab online, I don't have internet access where I run my games, so its not worth the added expense. I can take my laptop and printer with me, print the necessary sheets and I'm good. If I need internet access I'd have to print everything at home and hopefully not forget to bring the printouts when I drag the books with me. Half the time my home internet doesn't work well either.
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