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I'm sorry but,

Mystic Lemur said:
I don't know who you are or where you live, but know that I hate you*. I hate you with the kind of hate that is normally reserved for pedophiles and people who torture animals*. I work in a retail pharmacy, and I can tell you with some authority that the customer is often wrong, and occasionally dangerously so. The customer is also hardheaded and stubborn and would rather use the product wrong that to have someone tell them the right way to use it. And then when the product doesn't work exactly like they think it should (regardless of what it's actually meant to do) it's somehow your fault for not telling them otherwise. The same customer, remember, who gets mad when you try to "waste their time" telling them about the product and how it should and shouldn't be used.

That is what I see in this thread. A customer who bought a product expecting it to do things it wasn't designed to, and refusing to use the documentation (which is part of the product he paid for) and the advice/suggestion of forum users (which he got for free) to learn what it actually can do. I'm sure if random generators are that important to him, he can find a way to incorporate them into RW, but not without first reading the documentation and learning how to insert objects.



*I don't have anything against you personally, but that mentality has made it terribly difficult to interact with some customers. Even if they're using a product in a way that could kill them, they assume they're right and I'm just being "rude" by telling them otherwise.
Click to expand...

I understand your opinion. I grew up in retail in an area with tourists. So I understand your feeling. So I get what you're saying. I do.
 
Mystic Lemur said:
I don't know who you are or where you live, but know that I hate you*. I hate you with the kind of hate that is normally reserved for pedophiles and people who torture animals*.
Click to expand...

These two lines. How to give the Community Manager a heart attack on Monday morning...

That being said everyone, I think you have all said your piece on the matter.

EightBitz said:
They need to add an option for allowing us more free time from other obligations to devote to building worlds and campaigns.
Click to expand...
Hmmmm... I can see that taking a while to design and develop. ;)
 
mirtos said:
I actually rewrote my post a couple of times. I should have let version 2 stay. i know you werent, but some people seemed to be. Its one of the flaws of the internet, flaming is too easy. Im not stating that you did it, but that it was done. Im not trying to single ANYONE out.

Flaming generally serves little purpose and makes a possible useful debate devolve into defensiveness.

I do agree that the software is going to be complicated, and I also agree that RW has done an amazing job at keeping it relatively intuitive.

I also believe that the real problem with this thread is that the OP didn't cite any real specific complaints. Its the difference between criticism, and constructive criticism.

Still, I live by the adage, "the customer is always right".

But where you and I fundamentally disagree, is that a poster should ever expect "heat". Its something that has become commonplace in the internet, but is not a good quality of it. Its a fundamentally bad quality, in my opinion. It causes discourse and discussion to be destroyed by as you put it, "flames". As you mentioned, a lot of it has to do with the medium. Text isnt good for displaying emotion, and this type of forum makes it easy to disassociate a poster from a person. I've been using the internet since the early 90s (prior to web browsers), and its one of the worst aspects of it.

My only suggestion before replying to a post, and im guilty of it too, is to take a moment, and be willing to edit or delete comments if they seem too snarky. Again, my personal opinion, and not directed at you directly Nikmal. (we're probably getting horribly offtopic).
Click to expand...

Probably the wisest post this thread so far. I also live by that adage "The customer is always right". It's not something that is really true, but for that customer it is and what they have been led to understand with the limited knowledge they have been given. Being a customer service rep is not easy, but it takes a special kind of person who mostly is not judgmental.

Bruce
 
Other people can have their opinions about my post, it's ok, their experience may be different.

I am still wrestling with this application. Manuals be damned because that's not the problem. The manuals say:


2.6. You Don’t Have to Get it Perfect the First Time

and then they say BUT:

3.1.2. Limited Undo


So, do I have to get it perfect the first time or not? What I am seeing is YES, I better get it perfect because this thing is damned unforgiving if you don't do it 'right'.
 
immotus said:
Other people can have their opinions about my post, it's ok, their experience may be different.

I am still wrestling with this application. Manuals be damned because that's not the problem. The manuals say:


2.6. You Don’t Have to Get it Perfect the First Time

and then they say BUT:

3.1.2. Limited Undo


So, do I have to get it perfect the first time or not? What I am seeing is YES, I better get it perfect because this thing is damned unforgiving if you don't do it 'right'.
Click to expand...
I think the two statements are referring to different scopes. The limited Undo is referring to a finite number of undo options on things that have them, and also, some actions don't due to the nature of what you did. That doesn't necessarily mean you're stuck with them, but it can't be undone with a single keystroke or click.

The don't have to get it perfect the first time, IMO, refers to how you arrange your data. As has been pointed out many times, there are many ways of doing things, so experimenting to see what works for you is expected and sometimes, it won't.
 
I am enjoying this program immensely. Even though the only thing I have done so far is work on the plot and character info (which I had problems with and posted questions). I haven't had the time to really get into things but it doesn't seem that hard to work with so far. Then again my opinion is slightly biased as I come from working on a program called Maptools and have had to basically program my own macros (with lots of help from the forums, thanks Bonewhite!). Not to mention talking others through getting it working then connected to my server.
You want to talk learning curve.... ha, I laugh in your face...j/k.

One thing that has helped me with these "learning curves" is patience, lots of patience in some cases (Maptools). That and going through the program clicking on things and seeing what the options are (especially in Realm Works). Oh yeah, and youtube videos! I have watched them all the way through and have helped me to get a better grasp of things in both Realm Works and Maptools.
To be honest, I tried reading the documentation, it didn't seem to help much. Most of what I skimmed through was basic stuff that I was able to figure out on my own. The videos are basic also but help in a different way. Maybe it is seeing someone go through the process of creating a campaign...

What the OP may be getting at and is frustrated by is the fact that he paid hard earned money for this program and expects it to be a little easier to work through, especially with a $50 price tag.

Bruce
 
wanna talk hard earned money AND learning curve? I call your maptools (which I use also, and love) and see you one Campaign Cartographer.
 
He is entitled to his opinion of course, but give these guys a break. People often expect software to work magic, and it just can't. We are talking about a system capable of generating WORLDS. That is an inherently difficult task, and it is naive to think that a piece of software can somehow make that process simple. Sure, the program isn't quite perfect, but they are working on those things. You can either have a flexible tool that lets you do what needs to be done in your own way or you can have something rigid that forces you into a 'do it my way or not at all,' which frequently is fairly easy to use. But it leaves you torqued because it comes close but just won't let you do what you need to do.
 
I do not think Maptool, Campaign Cartographer or Realmworks have steep learning curves at all. What i do think actually it is more what i know as evidenced in the field i work in. Most people(present company excluded) Do not want to put in the time and effort to learn how to do things they want a high quality product that does the work for them with as little effort and most gain for them. If the program does not do exactly what they want how they want it is never their fault because the program obviously does not work in the way intended even if you prove the person wrong they often have a tendency to dig their heels in.

In the case of Realm Works, I knew going in that this was not the final product and that i was paying my money to essentially help the company work out the bugs and had to wait on features like the custom calendar and printing and i am okay with that I have more than enough to putter around with as Realm Works is right now if anything i would counsel patience. Now you ladies and gentlemen have wonderful weekend of gaming and fun and for the love of god UNPLUG its summer time get out of the house and get some sun ya vampires :P
 
Dervish said:
I do not think Maptool, Campaign Cartographer or Realmworks have steep learning curves at all. What i do think actually it is more what i know as evidenced in the field i work in. Most people(present company excluded) Do not want to put in the time and effort to learn how to do things they want a high quality product that does the work for them with as little effort and most gain for them. If the program does not do exactly what they want how they want it is never their fault because the program obviously does not work in the way intended even if you prove the person wrong they often have a tendency to dig their heels in.

In the case of Realm Works, I knew going in that this was not the final product and that i was paying my money to essentially help the company work out the bugs and had to wait on features like the custom calendar and printing and i am okay with that I have more than enough to putter around with as Realm Works is right now if anything i would counsel patience. Now you ladies and gentlemen have wonderful weekend of gaming and fun and for the love of god UNPLUG its summer time get out of the house and get some sun ya vampires :P
Click to expand...

Oh, I think you have to say MapTool has a high learning curve. If I try to get 5 people together for a game, I can guarantee you someone/s will have problems just launching it. When starting a new campaign (or if my group has been on a multi-month break) I usually book an hr at the start to fix inevitable MapTool problems.

Having said that... MapTool - once working well, and once you've nutted out your framework you've bravely installed - there's nothing like it. It's impossible to go back.

HOWEVER... I don't see much overlap between MapTool and Realm Works. A little bit of the mapping, which MapTool handles much better, and the "during game" handling, if you're set up correctly, MapTool again wins... but other than that they do different jobs. If I had one genie wish it would be to combin Realm Works and MapTool :(
 
No program is ever really done. This company has a great track record of improving their products and adding functionality. Look at Microsoft Word. Anyone who has ever tried using the auto numbering (outlining) feature of the program knows that it's been broken for at least a decade, and Microsoft hasn't fixed it yet. I think we can count on LW to beat Microsoft and not leave outright bugs unfixed for more than a few months. And they will add a lot of capability. I think most of us are glad to have the functionality we do have, as it beats any other solution you might try to force to work.
 
haha good one :P

But what is not working with the outlining in word? I'm not a super master of the word documents, but I created pages with many numberings / outlinings and it worked pretty well, section breaks etc. I just have to be done with system from the start :)

What I hated though were those red-x problems, when the images were replaced...
 
Acenoid, if you produce a document and do little editing, you may not know it's broken, but if you have to go insert new levels in an deeply nested document, you will curse Microsuck (I mean Microsoft). Just do a search for auto-numbering problem/bug, and you will see what I'm talking about. The sinful thing is that you are talking about a mega-billion $ company here, and their software is still crap (and has been in this regard as I said for over a decade) in some important regards. (ever try moving a floating diagram in a document - another horribly bugged implementation).
 
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