A Request to help with Monster Creation

[rdevelyn]

Hi there,

I wonder whether you might consider adding the following various bits and pieces to Hero Lab Pathfinder, maybe as part of the Bestiary add on, to allow us to create monsters without using the editor (in other words, much more easily!):

Classes, under Creature Types: Aberration to Vermin. Humanoid and Outsider would need three variants each (e.g. Humanoid(good Fortitude), etc).

Feats: Generic Ability(Str) to Generic Ability(Cha), where the characteristic determines the DC of the related saving throw. These feats would have to be free ones, unless you add the ability to add Special Abilities (though that I imagine would be more work for you). Being able to name the ability would be nice, as would being able to specify at-will to x/day.

Attacks: Bite through to Talons, maybe called Natural Attack (Bite), etc, to group them all together.

Adjustment: Class Skill (name).

What do you think?

Richard

 

[Nikmal]

I think that what you are asking is much harder to implement then the editor would ever be. Having a language though in the editor that is easier to understand and not so much in laymans terms might be a little easier to do then what you are asking.

 

[chiefweasel]

Actually i think you can do that now. you can create content outside the editor and have it applied to HL. the problem is that you would need to work with native xml and know all the positional parameteres needed to ensure evereything got to the correct fields.

Although, I'm not sure that is easier then using the editor.

 

[rdevelyn]

I was actually asking the Hero Lab authors whether they would consider putting this in.

Richard

 

[Mathias]

The problem with this sort of custom race is that once you're finished, you can't save it as a file that others can use. The only way to share it would be by saving the character, then transferring that saved character sheet.

Races created this way also couldn't be used as pre-reqs. You couldn't create a feat specifically for this race, for example.

Also, by the time this setup could duplicate all the options that the editor can, it would be just as daunting as the editor.

 

[Mathias]

When everyone says that the editor is hard to use, or that the language is hard to understand, no-one ever provides a specific example of something they are having a problem with - something that I can fix or improve.

Where exactly are you getting stumped in the process of creating a new race? What can we make more clear?

 

[Dragnmoon]

When everyone says that the editor is hard to use, or that the language is hard to understand, no-one ever provides a specific example of something they are having a problem with - something that I can fix or improve.

Where exactly are you getting stumped in the process of creating a new race? What can we make more clear?

Everything.... I know not useful... but I truly find your editor the worse User friendly I have ever seen.

I can only point to ones that are good to sample as examples..

Look at RPGXplorer. now that was user friendly.

You need to take out all Code reference terms, and make the editor UI friendly to a gamer using gaming terms.

For example of terms I am looking at the feat tab..

What the hell is a bootstrap? Gizmo? Minion? Custom expression? Do I need al that stuff? All I want to do is Make A feat that gives me a +4 bonus to X!...

It needs to be naturally intuitive that any gamer can just open it and know exactly what he/she needs to do.

Right now your editor is more geared to coders not gamers.. and not all gamers are coders. I could take the time to learn how to do it, but I don't have that time.

RPGXplorer was very Gamer friendly you knew exactly what you needed to do to make things!

Though this would require basically scrapping the whole thing and starting new, which I am sure you would not want to do.

 

[Dragnmoon]

When everyone says that the editor is hard to use, or that the language is hard to understand, no-one ever provides a specific example of something they are having a problem with - something that I can fix or improve.

Where exactly are you getting stumped in the process of creating a new race? What can we make more clear?

One other thing if it requires code to be able to do it, then it is wrong!

I should be able to do everything within the game rules by the editor.

 

[Nikmal]

Instead of changing all of the buttons/fields IN the editor maybe describe better what they do or capable of doing? Right now the description of what they do is fairly spotty and as mentioned not very intuitive. Most gamers just want to be able to go in and maybe customize what they need or want in the Editor and do not know what half of the fields and buttons in there do.

Also creating a video on how to use the editor and in terms that any body can basically understand while going through and showing exactly what you are talking doing IN the video would be a good thing. I know the tutorials in text are useful but they are kind of confusing and seemingly geared towards coders and people that actually understand some or alot of computer syntax.

One or both of the above would vastly improve the editor and how to use it. The changing of labels on buttons and or making the "help" portion of the button and what it does more intuitive and explaining in a little more detail would be faster and easier to do then the video... but the video would be heads over heels better and go a LONG way in to showing your community that you have their best interest in your software in mind.

(If there is video's out there I have done searches for them but I missed them.. so I apologize if there is one or two out there... but having one for each tab would be an amazing thing!! , especially in a plain language with out computer jargon involved would be excellent )

 

[bodrin]

I know what everyone is trying to explain is difficult with the scripting language and it is a scripting language.

It was nice when the Macros were introduced which took a lot of coding away from the editor and hid it behind a simple command.

But it would be nice to have a few more options that do what it says,
For example buttons that say Competence bonus, Profane Bonus, Enhancement Bonus these can be used to, "Bootstrap" for want of a better phrase, bonuses onto Feats, Skills, Abilities.

E.G, Feat "XXXX" provides a +5 skill points when taken.

Code example

      ~ If we're disabled, do nothing
      if (tagis[Helper.FtDisable] <> 0) then
        done
        endif

      if (field[fChosen].ischosen = 0) then
        done
        endif

      ~ Get the index of this class into the totals 'skill points' array
      var index as number
      index = field[fChosen].chosen.field[cClsIndex].value

      ~ Increase the total skill points for this class by 5
      herofield[tSkTotals].arrayvalue[index] += 5

It would be easier for none programmers to enter the feat name click a button that says something similar too "Applied effect" with a selection list that you can tick then add a numeric value

The Ability bonus button leads onto the six abilites Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha
The Skill bonus button leads onto applicable skills or a general Skill Rank
Other Bonus buttons lead onto other numeric fields.

So to add the 5 skill points from the above code would be a case of clicking the Skill Bonus Button and entering 5 into the empty field.

A very similar mechanism to the "Bonus Feat for" option in the editor where once clicked you get the Select Tags window with

New Tag
Fighter
And other classes

Mathias as you know I am not a programmer and I just cobble together stuff from examples of existing code and by asking questions from Cheeseweasel, Lawful_g, Colen and the rest of the community, it was and still is daunting entering custom data.

However perseverance does pay off and you can soon have a basic feat or ability working satisfactory.

I agree with Dragonmoon about RPGxplorer it was easier and quicker to add custom feats and apply a modifier.

Its just that the loading times were horrendous before a certain build, which is why I bought Hero Lab first and started Code Crunching.
A simpler mechanism to add custom code would be superb even if was only a Macro command.

 

[huntercc]

As a programmer who attempted to do something like what you guys are describing... I can say it is nowhere near as easy as you are suggesting. The problem is there is so much variety in what feats can do, what special abilities can do, what classes can do, etc. that to simplify it all down to "Feat XXX gives +4 bonus to Y" is just not enough to cover even half of what's out there in print.

That said... maybe adding a supplemental editor would feasible... call one a Simple Editor and the other an Advanced Editor. That way you have the best of both worlds, you would be able to satisfy the needs of those folks who for one reason or another are not able to use the Advanced Editor to its full extent, but those who can would still have that option.

Also, I agree that maybe adding a few short videos describing some of the more common tasks within the editor would help get more people using it. I know the folks at d20pro have done so, and I felt they really helped me understand some of the more confusing aspects of their software.

 

[Mathias]

Actually, bodrin, in Pathfinder, that feat is:

~If we're disabled, do nothing
doneif (tagis[Helper.FtDisable] <> 0
 
#resmax[resSkill] += 5

Admittedly, most of that simplification comes because Pathfinder puts all the skill points into a single pool, as opposed to d20's method of keeping a separate pool for each class, so there's no need to determine which class was selected, and then figure out which pool that class has.

Competence, Profane and Enhancement bonuses are added with the #applybonus macro:

#applybonus[BonComp, hero.child[skSwim], 4]

(+4 Competence bonus to swim)
(The list of possible bonus types is in the Reference Information page in the editor manual)

When you say you want to add a reference to an ability, are you asking for the attribute's final value? The base value (for a pre-req of INT 13+)? Or the attribute bonus? There are so many things a person could be trying to look up.

If you can't remember what Intelligence's Id is, press the "Find Thing" button at the top right of most of the forms, set the filter to "Attribute", and then select intelligence from that list, and HL will enter INT's Id for you. Is that sort of thing helpful for the sort of "selection list" you're looking for?

 

[rdevelyn]

My two problems with the editor are:

1) not enough documentation,
2) forward compatibility (especially with HL changing so much right now).

But back to my original post.

Adding some built in classes, feats and one adjustment *cannot* be difficult, surely, for the HL deveopers, and it would save us going down the editor route at all in most cases.

That doesn't stop people defining proper races if they like, for things like race-dependent feats, but it does give those of us who want a quick way to define, say, that Formorian Giant, just using the HL front end.

Richard

 

[bodrin]

Actually, bodrin, in Pathfinder, that feat is:

~If we're disabled, do nothing
doneif (tagis[Helper.FtDisable] <> 0
 
#resmax[resSkill] += 5

I was just using the code example from a dataset that i have in the D20 System as an example, however taking the code above which is much simpler

The ~ comment line is easily read and understandable.
But "doneif (tagis[Helper.FtDisable] <> 0" isn't to a user that doesn't program or understand the mathematical symbols or even what FTDisable is!

The macro command #resmax[resSkill] += 5 to a non programmer is confusing.

Broken down into the component parts from a non programmers point of view :- What does resmax mean? What does resSkill mean? What does +=5 mean? What is Helper.FTDisable?

To you guys that have developed the editor and Hero Lab its second nature because you use it every day.

To a gamer that just wants to add that cool new stuff from a book that isn't supported it isn't second nature.

Competence, Profane and Enhancement bonuses are added with the #applybonus macro:

#applybonus[BonComp, hero.child[skSwim], 4]

(+4 Competence bonus to swim)
(The list of possible bonus types is in the Reference Information page in the editor manual)

Again this is an easiliy applied macro but the only understandable parts to a non programmer is the ApplyBonus and the skSwim statement.

Again broken down What is BonComp? What is Hero.Child?

I know that BonComp is a Competence Bonus, and i'm almost certain that Hero.Child refers to the character and a tag or pick on that character but from a non programmers point of view it isn't that obvious.

When you say you want to add a reference to an ability, are you asking for the attribute's final value? The base value (for a pre-req of INT 13+)? Or the attribute bonus? There are so many things a person could be trying to look up.

If you can't remember what Intelligence's Id is, press the "Find Thing" button at the top right of most of the forms, set the filter to "Attribute", and then select intelligence from that list, and HL will enter INT's Id for you. Is that sort of thing helpful for the sort of "selection list" you're looking for?

I was just using the ability modifiers as an example of something that could be theoretically implemented and made easier to the end user that isn't a programmer.

A suggested sequence of events to add an ability modifier using buttons that write the correct code for you instead of typing it into the Eval Script, Pre req Script fields.

Enter the Custom Data name and description in the proper fields Manually.

Click a button that generates a unique ID name for the Custom Data parsing it and checking for any duplicates already in the data files.

Click the Bonus Button, which then asks what type of bonus or custom modifier the user requires.
Click the What type of bonus button, which then asks what does the bonus apply too.
Click the applicable stat, ability, feat, skill or other thing button and enter the modifier into a value field.

The editor behind the scenes writes the code with each button press.
So for your Pathfinder example at the top

Apply a +4 Competence bonus to the swim skill, requires three button presses, one tick box and typing 4 into a value field.

Bonus, Bonus type, Applies to Skill, Tick Swim, Enter 4 in a Value field.

Code produced "#applybonus[BonComp, hero.child[skSwim], 4]"
Simpler and quicker.

The button driven menu can be expanded to enter home brew custom stuff too.
After all the diverse range of feat descriptors that grew from the original SRD source was huge Tactical, Divine, Teamwork Feats.
Skill Tricks, Energy Focus and a whole smorgasbord of crunchy custom stuff that needed to be coded long hand, tested and verified, bootstrapped, gizomoed.

Quite daunting to new users, A simpler method of entering data would be beneficial to all, and anybody that wants to study the code also has the long hand option too!

Just my thoughts on an improvement to the editor, and only offered as constructive criticism.

The Hero Lab Program is amazing and you guys at Lone Wolf have provided us gamers with a great product that goes from strength to strength.

 

[chiefweasel]

I agree, while i love the HL product, I would like to have a simpler way to enter content, or some of it anyways. and i am sure some of this will come with the evenlution of the product, but we all know that us gamers hate to read the rules, lol.

I get emails all the time from users asking how to input information. Even the idea of videos came up, so there are user in the community that would love to contribyte information but feel they cant.

I would like to see a simpler process for entering basic information.

For instance: To check if a new feat has any pre-requ feats, I would like to see a drop down menu and be able to slect all the other feats that are required.

The same for skills, or when set amount, like +2 is added to a skill for a feat.

I guess where i am going is to ask; is there maybe a panel driven way of inputting information instead of having to code for it?

Thanks.

 

[bodrin]

I guess where i am going is to ask; is there maybe a panel driven way of inputting information instead of having to code for it?

My thoughts are in the prior posts but I concur with chiefweasels summary!

 

[ShadowChemosh]

I just wanted to add my voice to this thread as I am also still a customer that uses HL allot. I wanted to simply say that I would hope that if the suggestions above get put in that maybe the idea of a simple editor or an advanced editor is kept as I would actually prefer the editor to NOT get easier as it would make it harder for myself to use.

I am not saying DO NOT make it easier for others, but hope that a way of using the editor as it is now is kept also. As I am a full time programmer for 15+ years so I find the current editor just right. It helps me along nicely without getting in my way when I just want to do stuff and slap in some code. Though lately I have found myself editing the XML files directly more and more.

I do agree that videos can be VERY helpful for learning and I always look for those for new tools I have to use myself on a job site. It's much easier to simply watch a video with information then read pages of information. So that is I think a easy to implement solution to using the editor even as it is now.

In example to this one my players wanted to learn to use the Editor in HL. He spent three hours reading the help and trying to poke around and enter a single Trait. He was not able to do it and gave up. I told him to come over one Saturday afternoon and I will do a quick tutorial with him. After that single hour of going over the basics of the editor he not only got it but was able to enter the whole Dwarves of Golarion book himself (he still had questions here and their, but he did the coding). That book is on the d20 website for download.

My point being that I do agree with the videos as those can be VERY helpful to get people over the initial confusion of the editor. Once over that little hurtle they seem to do very well actually with the editor as is. Though the suggestions of having the editor able to put in some of the basic Macro's through a little wizard could also be very helpful to those that are new to coding (ie scripting) that HL uses.

So as I am probably in that very small percentage that likes the editor as is I just wanted to add my 2 cents. To me the power of the editor is the REAL scripting language and is what brought me to actual purchase HL. I had been looking for a Character Editor payed or free that was worth it for 10 years. Before I found HL I actually told my players that they should just use MS Word to do a character as at least it would be correct, but now I am pushing them all to HL. So thanks.

 

[Nikmal]

I personally would not want to see the editor change much either. What I would like though is for the question marks to divulge more information then they do and explain what the buttons do then the current information given. Even hovering the mouse over the buttons like bootstrap, thing and so on, could produce a little pop up window giving information out on what the button does.

Putting out some videos would be a good thing too. I have brought this up earlier in the thread and even PM'd a few people about it too. Going through the editor tab by tab and explaining what each button and field is available and what it does for each tab.

It would be nice if Mathias or Lonewolf Rob could address a few of the things I bring up too

Thanks in advance!

 

[Colen]

Hi guys,

Firstly, thanks for everyone's feedback in this thread. We definitely appreciate it, regardless of whether it's good or bad for us.

Since we released Hero Lab, we've spent a lot of time thinking about the editor. We've made some big improvements since v1.0, but there are definitely further strides that could be made. This thread has seen the whole spectrum of requests, from "Make it easy for me to do X specific thing" to "Please don't 'dumb things down' too much" and "You should add an 'easy mode' editor".

A comparison to the "RPGXplorer" tool is actually pretty instructive. From what I remember of RPGXplorer, it was tailored specifically to the d20 system, and its editor was very highly structured. That meant that if you wanted to add something that fit neatly into the way they did things, it was as easy as checking a box. However, if you wanted to do anything outside those lines, there was just no way to accomplish it.

Now look at Hero Lab. Instead of one game system, we now support 9 (!), with a 10th on the way. Those game systems aren't simply variants of each other, they're all incredibly different - compare Call of Cthulhu to Pathfinder to World of Darkness. So we can't simply take the easy way out and create checkboxes for the 10 common things that d20 system feats do.

We need to support every foible of each of those games, which means we need a lot of flexibility in how we do things. Not only that, we try to give users the tools to create (almost) anything they want, including things that work differently from anything in the "official" game content. That requires even more flexibility on our part.

We've tried to accomplish that while still striking a balance with ease of use. For example, go to the Hero Lab editor, and look at the controls on the "Race" tab. Without even touching the "advanced" buttons, you can configure types, subtypes, hit dice, ability score modifiers, movement types, natural attacks, and much much more - all without writing a single line of code. Once you get over the initial learning curve where you learn how the editor works (which we think the tutorials help with), you can get a lot accomplished with almost no "programming" required.

So, we've tried to do what we could to keep things simple enough for users. Could we make it simpler and easier to use than it is now? Absolutely. However, we're a tiny company, and our resources are already spread very thin. To make something that's significantly better than the current editor, it would take us many months of work. That means that we have to spend those months working on the Hero Lab editor instead of something else.

At that point it's a trade-off. If we spend months improving the editor, it means we're not working on other things - other improvements to Hero Lab, adding new game systems, bug fixes, new content for games like Pathfinder. So we've created an editor which we think works reasonably well for most people, and spent that other time working on the other aspects of Hero Lab that almost everyone uses.

For example - let's say we had spent a few months working on making the Pathfinder editor easier to use. That means we wouldn't have had time to work on a major chunk of Pathfinder features, like the Bestiary or the Advanced Player's Guide, or maybe PDF output, or perhaps the Tactical Console, or maybe even a whole new game system.

We're absolutely interested in improving the editor's capabilities in future releases of Hero Lab. But unfortunately, making major strides in that direction will take us months of work, which is time we don't get to spend on adding new cool stuff to the rest of the product. It's a balancing act.

Hopefully this helps explain the current situation. If you're curious about how to accomplish something specific in the editor, I recommend you read the editor tutorials, then post here if you still have questions. We're happy to help anyone who wants to learn how to use Hero Lab in more advanced ways.

Thanks for reading!

 

[risner]

I must add that having owned RPGxplorer, I found it impossible to create any of my characters in RPGx. I eventually gave up trying. I have also tried eTools, and a number of excel sheets.

HL is the first to be easy to use and allow me to build actual characters I play with a reasonably complete version.

I'm happy with the Editor, if I had one complaint is that I had trouble with two things despite reading the tutorial:

1) Understanding the meaning of and correct use of Bootstraps. (I now seem to have a handle of them, but mostly from looking at when and how they are used instead of reading something in the tutorial that make them clear.)

2) Timing is somewhat complicated. It is sometimes difficult to understand when you should add a script in the timing. The only way to help this would be to have a decent list of all "events" that happened with a description of what they do so you can place timings properly. Like after all mods to STR are added but before Encumbrance is calculated for instance. The best way I got now is trial and error.