Realm Works + HeroLab Online = Virtual Tabletop

[Merion]

I know the usual reactions when someone mentions Realm Works and VTT in the same breath, so before you get out your pitchforks and torches:

Okay? We're good? Great, now hear me out!
I'm not saying LWD should throw its already spread out resources into trying to convert RW into a VTT which was never intended. But there are several improvements that would make the tool better imho and incrementally lead RW being a quasi-VTT. So let me list some features I'd love to see:

• Dice roller - been on the backlog for a while I think
• Being able to place icons for my PCs on the map
• Being able to move these around as a GM
• Being able to likewise place (and move) enemies and neutral NPCs
  Right now, I use the player view to show dungeon and other maps (love the fog of world!), NPC, monster and atmospheric pics. But when it comes down to battle, I print out the battle maps and we fidget around with minis. Want to do this on the big screen, too!
• Importing the statblock of PCs from HLO
• As long as I'm online this could be done on the fly
• Speaking of on the fly, this then could let me see the current HP and conditions of each character
• Next logical step would be to change and apply conditions (and XP) as a DM
• Control of the tactical console (I know, its not even in HLO yet) from within Realm Works
• and finally Live Sharing of Player View over the Internet

There are probably more, but those came to me mind right now.
I think most of these features would benefit the tool, some are likely easier to implement than others, but if you do implement even some of these - mostly quality of life - features you'll probably end up with something close to a VTT with a heavyweight campaign management system behind it.
For reference: I use HLO as player and RW as a DM and am a great fan of both. But I see a) room for improvement and b) market pressure from the VTTs.

Having said that, you can now pick up your pitchforks and torches again and roast away

 

[EightBitz]

I know the usual reactions when someone mentions Realm Works and VTT in the same breath, so before you get out your pitchforks and torches:

Okay? We're good? Great, now hear me out!

OK, I'm listening ...

I'm not saying LWD should throw its already spread out resources into trying to convert RW into a VTT which was never intended.

OK. That's cool. Still listening ...

But there are several improvements that would make the tool better imho and incrementally lead RW being a quasi-VTT.

But ... you JUST SAID ... no, wait, never mind. Keeping an open mind. Go on ...

So let me list some features I'd love to see:

• Dice roller - been on the backlog for a while I think
• Being able to place icons for my PCs on the map
• Being able to move these around as a GM
• Being able to likewise place (and move) enemies and neutral NPCs
  Right now, I use the player view to show dungeon and other maps (love the fog of world!), NPC, monster and atmospheric pics. But when it comes down to battle, I print out the battle maps and we fidget around with minis. Want to do this on the big screen, too!
• Importing the statblock of PCs from HLO
• As long as I'm online this could be done on the fly
• Speaking of on the fly, this then could let me see the current HP and conditions of each character
• Next logical step would be to change and apply conditions (and XP) as a DM
• Control of the tactical console (I know, its not even in HLO yet) from within Realm Works
• and finally Live Sharing of Player View over the Internet

But you JUST said you did NOT want ... I mean ... I'm very confused here.

There are probably more, but those came to me mind right now.
I think most of these features would benefit the tool, some are likely easier to implement than others, but if you do implement even some of these - mostly quality of life - features you'll probably end up with something close to a VTT with a heavyweight campaign management system behind it.
For reference: I use HLO as player and RW as a DM and am a great fan of both. But I see a) room for improvement and b) market pressure from the VTTs.

Having said that, you can now pick up your pitchforks and torches again and roast away

*Picks them up and lights torches.*

GET 'IM, BOYS!

 

[Merion]

Lol!

But you JUST said you did NOT want ... I mean ... I'm very confused here.

Alright, let me try to clarify: I do not want them to set another big goal like "Let's make RW a VTT!" and pour everything into that. I don't want another content market...

But they seem to be working on bug fixes and feature improvements for RW again - or at least they are communicating them again. So why not put some feature on that list that are improvements right away and also prepare for a future where a more VTT-like behavior is wished or a comercial necessity. Also I just see great possibilities and synergies now that the HL character information is online - just as our realm are.

 

[EightBitz]

Lol!



Alright, let me try to clarify: I do not want them to set another big goal like "Let's make RW a VTT!" and pour everything into that. I don't want another content market...

But they seem to be working on bug fixes and feature improvements for RW again - or at least they are communicating them again. So why not put some feature on that list that are improvements right away and also prepare for a future where a more VTT-like behavior is wished or a comercial necessity. Also I just see great possibilities and synergies now that the HL character information is online - just as our realm are.

1. Because, as you said, it would stress the team.
2. That's not what the software was designed to do. It's not designed for RT play. I don't know if that's an easy change. It might require a ground-up redesign. It all depends on how the software is engineered.
3. It runs the risk of bloating the software. When you take something that's designed to do X and not Y, then you try to make it do Y after the fact, you're likely looking at a lot of patchwork code. It risks bogging down the software.

I would rather see a separate VTT project with integration options. Then you can have a suite of products. A trifecta. Character management with Hero Lab, campaign management with RW, and VTT with ... ummm ... Game Knight! (No? Too much? How about ... ummm ... Cat Herding? Too on the nose, perhaps. Orc Quest Rations? Hey ... put down that pitchfork!)

 

[kbs666]

I just posted a great long list of things that would keep the devs busy for a couple of years, probably, and now you want them to make RW into a VTT. I'd rather see them partner up with an existing VTT and integrate the two packages together.

 

[Merion]

Okay, I confess, I'm just sick of printing out battle maps when I already got it on the big tv screen (and unfortunately I don't have the space to create something like daplunk did).

2. That's not what the software was designed to do. It's not designed for RT play. I don't know if that's an easy change. It might require a ground-up redesign. It all depends on how the software is engineered.
3. It runs the risk of bloating the software. When you take something that's designed to do X and not Y, then you try to make it do Y after the fact, you're likely looking at a lot of patchwork code. It risks bogging down the software.

Of course! I have no clue about the technical ramifactions of this. The Player View might be an encapsulated module and adding more features like character portraits as a layer on shown maps might be easy or it's closly entangled with the rest of the code and all this is a huge undertaking or risk.
We can only speculate on that part without LWD chiming in.

I would rather see a separate VTT project with integration options. Then you can have a suite of products. A trifecta. Character management with Hero Lab, campaign management with RW, and VTT with ... ummm ... Game Knight! (No? Too much? How about ... ummm ... Cat Herding? Too on the nose, perhaps. Orc Quest Rations? Hey ... put down that pitchfork!)

Game (K)night, I like it!
Also like the idea itself. Detaching the Player View into its own product. You could have a lite version that is basically the Player View as we know it and a full featured standalone version that has a deep integration with Realm Works.

I just posted a great long list of things ...

True, and I'm thankful for that, but you intentionally left out the Player View, so I thought I'll throw some halfbaked ideas in the ring and see if discussion leads us anywhere.

I'd rather see them partner up with an existing VTT and integrate the two packages together.

Yeah, I would be more than happy with that. I'm just not sure if it would be less work for the team than incrementally building their own. Especially with the experience of the content market where waiting for the other end seemed like a big part of the problem.


I think that all this might be connected with the question if Realm Works Online is still planned (even if surely not anytime soon). A lot of this is probably easier done if RW is a live online tool instead of client-server-solution with only occational syncs.

 

[kbs666]

Going from Player View to a full VTT seems to be quite a leap. Not that I'm opposed to incrementally moving in that direction if LWD gets some of the quality of life stuff on that list I posted done, Calendars!, done first.

I'd also like to suggest that perhaps Paizo is particularly bad at these sorts of things and doesn't care a whole lot about LWD. Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds might see the benefits of not reinventing the wheel of all the things LWD has already done in HL and RW and put in the effort to integrate their platform with LWD's packages.

 

[Dark Lord Galen]

OK, I'm listening ...

OK. That's cool. Still listening ...

But ... you JUST SAID ... no, wait, never mind. Keeping an open mind. Go on ...

But you JUST said you did NOT want ... I mean ... I'm very confused here.

*Picks them up and lights torches.*

GET 'IM, BOYS!

Now that's funny

 

[Dark Lord Galen]

.......... I'd rather see them partner up with an existing VTT and integrate the two packages together.

This.....
And at one point they did in fact seem to lean in this direction with D20 Pro...

"Could" there be a supplement that "could" be an addon to do this in the future?? eh who can say.. but lets not pile on a "new feature" (insert excuse) to further sidetrak other promises now years overdue.

"Could" this new supplement be the home for a better and expanded view of the combat manager??? Real time updates?? Auto-updateable PORs? ETc.. Etc... Etc.... Sure... there are lots of things it "could be".

For myself, I'm still waiting on what it "should be"... as promised.
2cp

 

[Dark Lord Galen]

...............

Game (K)night, I like it!
Also like the idea itself. Detaching the Player View into its own product. You could have a lite version that is basically the Player View as we know it and a full featured standalone version that has a deep integration with Realm Works.
.........

So a repackage of yet another promise we sold our players on years ago... "the Player's Edition" that has since died on the vine nearly as fast as it was sold...
Like others have mentioned to varying degree... LWD resources is haphazard at best. The program(s) "could be" ...would be... far better if we can get out of the Labrea Tarpit known as the Content Market, and provide the other tools essential to campaign management from both the DM and Player sides...

CALENDARS
PC Journals that actually integrate with the aforementioned calendars
Customizable tokens for maps
Reveals that don't force you to display the file names..
The list goes on and on..

and I am preaching to the choir since we all at one point or another have voiced all of these....

Right now Realm Works is an over glorified electronic file cabinet loosely crossed with a wiki page.

Time for the T-Rex to either emerge from the pit or sink into obscurity.

And for reasoning I can't even fathom let alone put to words, I continue to "hope" the potential of the carnivore still becomes the meat in comparison to the potatoes.....

 

[daplunk]

If you are using RW as a VTT then you don't know how much better it can be. Realm Works fog system within maps is horridly inefficient. You need to go to the topic. Open the smart image in edit mode. Make the change with the fog visibility tool. Click save. Wait for the save to update. It's slow, clunky and takes too many clicks.

Give Maptool a go. Switch to map. Click and drag to reveal or hold hot key whole you click and drag to hide. It's quick, efficient and lets you get straight back to running the game.

Now moreicons on maps would be lovely. But not for the purpose of using the tool as a VTT IMO. Not without significant changes to how it currently works.

To make it even an attractive option for me they would need to implement the ability to send it to a third screen. Having one for me, one for the map and one for the player view is just too damn awesome to give up in order to use this for the map.

 

[Chemlak]

*snip*
CALENDARS
*snip*

and I am preaching to the choir since we all at one point or another have voiced all of these....

No idea what you're talking about, DLG. Nope. Not a clue. Nuh-uh.

 

[Acenoid]

Still not entirely certain why calendars are so important. Though dates a such a hassle to enter, I hope it will be improved with the upcoming release

Good luck for the calendars btw

 

[daplunk]

Shhh don't prod the Calendar Crew! They get a bit jumpy.

Although I agree... no idea why calendars are so important

 

[kbs666]

*twitching*
Calendars are important because they tie everything else together. I have this huge backstory of my campaign world covering thousands of years of history. Different ages of the world are dated by the dominant race of the time, Dragons, then Elves and finally Men. Then there is the weirdness of lunar calendars, The world has 3 moons. so different nations and cultures base their calendars on different moons, the moon chosen has a lot to do with the preferred magical style of the nation's leaders as each moon is tied to the different styles of magic.

So for example in the Dragon ages there are 2 primary calendars, The metallic dragons calendar which based their calendar on the prepared caster moon, they are mostly clerical casters, while the chromatic dragons calendar is based on the spontaneous moon, they are mostly sorcerers. They also have different year dating schemes. the metallic's begin the roll of years from the first clutch of eggs of Bahamut and his mate. The chromatic's begin their dating with the slaying of Bahamut's mate by Tiamat. So the two calendars are several centuries out of sync.

It gets more complicated from there.

 

[Happydevil43]

*twitching*
Calendars are important because they tie everything else together. I have this huge backstory of my campaign world covering thousands of years of history. Different ages of the world are dated by the dominant race of the time, Dragons, then Elves and finally Men. Then there is the weirdness of lunar calendars, The world has 3 moons. so different nations and cultures base their calendars on different moons, the moon chosen has a lot to do with the preferred magical style of the nation's leaders as each moon is tied to the different styles of magic.

So for example in the Dragon ages there are 2 primary calendars, The metallic dragons calendar which based their calendar on the prepared caster moon, they are mostly clerical casters, while the chromatic dragons calendar is based on the spontaneous moon, they are mostly sorcerers. They also have different year dating schemes. the metallic's begin the roll of years from the first clutch of eggs of Bahamut and his mate. The chromatic's begin their dating with the slaying of Bahamut's mate by Tiamat. So the two calendars are several centuries out of sync.

It gets more complicated from there.

Dear god! how the hell do you keep that organised? I am struggling with events happening over a few days let alone eons.
I ended up just downoading the calendars I need from donjon's website and enter links to snippets.... still a big job.

My hat goes off to you.

 

[Merion]

If you are using RW as a VTT then you don't know how much better it can be. Realm Works fog system within maps is horridly inefficient. You need to go to the topic. Open the smart image in edit mode. Make the change with the fog visibility tool. Click save. Wait for the save to update. It's slow, clunky and takes too many clicks.

Give Maptool a go. Switch to map. Click and drag to reveal or hold hot key whole you click and drag to hide. It's quick, efficient and lets you get straight back to running the game.

Now moreicons on maps would be lovely. But not for the purpose of using the tool as a VTT IMO. Not without significant changes to how it currently works.

To make it even an attractive option for me they would need to implement the ability to send it to a third screen. Having one for me, one for the map and one for the player view is just too damn awesome to give up in order to use this for the map.

What you say sounds good, but then I've seen the pictures of your gaming room and I have to say for me (and probably most of us) that is magical christmas land stuff. I have to make do with a laptop and a mediocre tv at my friends house where we play. So a 3rd screen is out of the question for me - unfortunately - and switching between player view for pictures and maptool on the second screen sound kinda unwieldy too.

Once my gaming evironment becomes more sophisticated, maybe I give maptool a shot. But generally I try to use as few tools as possibly because switching between tools breaks my flow as a DM. That's why I wish for RW to be my "gaming cockpit".
I even stopped using the HL tactical console for combat tracking as it's just faster for me to do that on paper. Also that UI drives me nuts. Hopefully HLO gets a smoother combat tracking and if it could be integrated into RW... well, then we're back to my initial post

Dear god! how the hell do you keep that organised?

More importantly: how do your players keep up with that?
I once tried a rather simple custom calender with 10 months, each with 3 weeks consisting of 10 days and gave the days and months the names of kings and gods.
When, after nearly two years, my players still had no effing clue what the days and months where called and which ones were during which season, I ditched the whole concept and went back to using our real world calender.
So yeah, I don't get the calender hype either, but it seems important to some and if I recall correctly, it was a highly wished for feature when they did a survey a few years back.

 

[kbs666]

Dear god! how the hell do you keep that organised? I am struggling with events happening over a few days let alone eons.
I ended up just downoading the calendars I need from donjon's website and enter links to snippets.... still a big job.

My hat goes off to you.

I have spreadsheets lots and lots of spreadsheets.

How do my players? Mostly every time it comes up, the same way people IRL deal with dating schemes they're unfamiliar with, by trying to convert to the one they are familiar with. If you pass a synagogue and see a cornerstone that says the building was constructed in 5707 do you instantly know what that means? Or if it is relevant some reason do you look it up and find out the conversion, Sept. 1946 through Sept. 1947 CE for the interested.

Which is why having calendars in RW would make it so much better. Automatic linking of events with dates, and conversion between calendars, and a combined searchable timeline would make the campaigns history be much more a part of the whole world.

 

[Acenoid]

Hopefully they iron out their product first now, get some sales, positive feedback and then later on in the process set some further goals. Make them dlcs / expansions to get some money for it too. After it has been developed (or kickstart it if it must be...)