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- The Lone Wolf Development Team
Starfinder and Pathfinder 2E in Herolab Classic?
- Thread starter darkops
- Start date
I think you are really not giving the customer base a fair shake. Change is not inherently good and not liking the change in direction doesn't make your critique baseless. The flip side of that coin is me calling you a hipster or a bandwagon jumper. Someone who always gets the newest iPhone even if it functionally worse/equivalent. So lets avoid the implicit ad hoc attacks/writ-offs by making up group identities.
Lets also avoid trying to assess the size of your bins. You say a small minority doesn't have reliable internet. I counter that I frequently play in areas with little or no reliable internet. This includes gaming conventions (where internet is available ~40% of the time, but even when available the bandwidth is quite limited - especially at large cons), gaming stores (no internet in the ones I frequent), or people's basements (most have internet, 20% are not reliable). Beyond the reliability issue, not everyone has endless internet data plans (via phone/tablet/at a private residence home). In Canada we pay some of the highest bills for mobile data and internet plans in the suite of 'classic' 1st world countries. As well sometimes to run my laptop all day for a convention I have to go into airplane mode/dim brightness because the table we play at isn't within 3m of an outlet to keep my device charged for 14 hours of play. My anecdotal experience does not really suggest whether the number of people experiencing this issue is large or small. What it does say is that my desire for a HLC product is honest. HLO just doesn't work for me and my players. Without some statistical data, your comment about this being a small subset of people is making some big assumptions which are not self evident.
The subscription model is also loathsome. It isn't just $25.00/year. It is $25.00/year plus content. There is no guarantee that that fee stays the same over any amount of time and at the end of the day I don't own any of that material/content because I can't use it offline or without an off site server. How many online game servers do you that get pulled 5-10 years later and now you can't play the game you bought? What happens if the company goes belly up or they decide not to support it in the future? Will the allocated data/server space be available forever like an offline model? No. It is functionally a worse product. HLC you pay once for material in perpetuity. In HLO you pay that same amount AND a subscription fee which still doesn't guarantee any 'in perpetuity' because the logic is on a server you will never get access to. In every sphere of my life I will seek out option B through Z before I pay into a subscription model. In 6 more years will you still support the company pivoting to a new business model if they increase subscription costs to $100.00/year (despite you sinking hundred of dollars in content costs already) and also move to mass loot box drops for new data packages (or is it only some 'newer' business models that are 'okay').
The next bin is your "some people just don't like it". The product is more expensive, for less functionality (both core critical functionality like offline play or STABLE online play), making a change no one asked for. These are solid arguments to stay away from the product. Just because you can't fathom someone not liking a product doesn't make it a gem.
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And, before anyone jumps in with the "Android was the most requested feature" argument, there are non-networked, stand-alone apps for Android (Paizo's Adventure Card Game for Android, anyone?) that deal with datasets as large as HLC. Using the product on tablets was already possible with the iPad. Requesting Android as a supported platform does not necessitate an online-only application.
I'm not super-thrilled by the online-only model here, either, and darkops makes good points, the most concerning is (and I summarize) "What happens to our access to our purchases if Lone Wolf goes away or changes their business model?" I'm remaining very cautiously optimistic, but this fear is hanging out there.
ShadowChemosh
Well-known member
But this question is exactly the same for HLC. HLC uses licensed servers to be usable and if those servers turn off because LW goes away you still lose access to HL.
Does HLC check the server every time it runs or only when it updates? I was under the impression only when it updates because I can use it without internet access.
True, but that will be easily remedied by a hack, I'm sure. Alternatively, LW could go away pushing out one final release that removes the licensing server from the picture, so you'd have access to "what you currently have" but no more.
Not an option they have in a model where they need to physically maintain the server the app runs on.
What if you buy a new computer?
ShadowChemosh
Well-known member
It checks when anything major changes on your PC. Get a large Win10 update it checks. Change to much hardware it checks.
Meaning if LW servers go away you have X amount of time before HL falls into demo mode and cant be reactitvated.
ShadowChemosh
Well-known member
And then Windows 2020 comes out and HL binary is not compatable and the software is dead.
I am very sorry but counting on HACKS to keep using software is stupid. I would much rather pay LW WAY more money and keep them in business then HOPE a hack comes out to keep my software working.
HLO uses sub 100k per hour for typical use according to a previous post by a LWD dev, which is quite small. Also I call BS about the bad internet at conventions. I heard about how horrible the internet access was at Gen Con, well I went there for the first time this year, never had a problem with connecting. I go to a local convention, and I do remember having internet issues there, but that was 10 years ago, haven't had any issues in the past 5 years or more. Maybe people are just remembering bad old experiences?
It's so stupid that people are, even today, playing Atari 2600 games, Commodore 64 games, literally decades after the compatible hardware was last manufactured.
Having the ability to keep software running is infinitely better than having zero capability to keep the software running.
Thats great for you? Here is my "in the last year" snapshot:
- Large Con - Fan Expo - had internet, but it wasn't usable due to bandwidth. It also wasn't equally great reception in every room.
- Medium Con - Con Bravo - no internet in our room, yes elsewhere.
- Small Con - Gryphcon and Gryphcon Shadow - No internet (on a university campus, so you have internet if you're a student)
- Small Con - Skycon and Skycon Lite - Hotel internet with bad connectivity that was unusable (2 mins to load google with a hotel sign in page and it kicked you out every 20-30 mins on a timer).
- Gaming Store 1 - Yes, has internet.
- Gaming Store 2 - no, has no internet is a dungeon that also kills cell reception.
- Gaming Store 3 - no internet.
- Boardgame Cafe/Bar - no internet (likely to change soon though)
- My House/Friends House 1 - Yes, has internet.
- Friends House 2 - Yes internet, but is down frequently enough to impact game ~1/month.
- Friends Condo Event Room - No internet and too far away from friend's router to use his.
Now maybe you guys can stop trivializing other's experience with internet reliability/connectivity. Only 3 of 14 places that I frequent in the last year have 'reliable internet'. For my two groups and I as well as people who I meet in some of those gaming stores HLO is a huge downgrade. Now instead of live/offline modifications I have to print content (waste of paper/ink - another cost) and calculate on the fly (something I paid for HLC to do to speed up sessions and remove excessive arithmetic from play). Why would I now give out $25.00/year for the downgrade?
My first post is a clear "PLEASE TAKE MY MONEY". HLC is an awesome, amazing, efficient, user friendly piece of software. It has stripped away the less enjoyable parts of pathfinder and accentuates the more fun ones (quick PC building without the need of deep game mastery, more game immersion vs. people stuck doing math, helps out GMs with encounters creation, etc.). I want that tradition to continue and I want it to be with Lone Wolf because they are a set of good people who should be rewarded for making a great product. However, I, like many on this forum or the wider web don't want HLO or a subscription model. We don't want it for VALID reasons and such a product is DOA/not fit-for-purpose. HLC is fit-for-purpose and we all want to keep throwing money at the company if you are willing to just give us Starfinder/2e in that format.
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Well, being an android user for 7 years, I can understand the request. But, I'm not sure the balance has been taken into account of how many people lose capability when out of range from internet. Especially those same Android users who now find out that they need good access. Time will tell.
I'm surprised it wasn't readily obvious to anyone at GenCon, where the coverage is notoriously shit-tastic.
This was my first Gencon and my access to the internet was fine, I had heard it would be bad, but I had no issue. (using ATT). I didn't purchase it, but the convention sold wireless access for about $13 a day, no idea how good it is though.
ShadowChemosh
Well-known member
I have been to GenCon several times and I had great LTE access via my phone and iPad. I watched some videos and other stuff without any issues and even did facetime with my wife.
I do admit I was never in any basements or anything but the standard GenCon rooms did not interfere with my connections.
At one point I even had to remote into a computer at my work place and fix some issues. Had no issues seeing a remote computers desktop and doing work. Pretty sure that requires more bandwidth than HLO does.
I am not saying people don't find "bad" areas but I have not been in a low cell coverage area in a long time in the US.
FWIW, the sagamore ballroom had great reception. Now, I did have games in crown plaza, homewood suites, and other rooms in IIC.
Most had decent bars, but I did have a few that made my phone go into roaming... Luckily I didn't need HLO then and their...
All I would say is, the chances of having good signal when I need it is good, but I'd be pretty pissed if I got to a game where I DID need and didn't have it. The real problem is you will never know until it's too late at a con...You are already their, what do you do then?
Most had decent bars, but I did have a few that made my phone go into roaming... Luckily I didn't need HLO then and their...
All I would say is, the chances of having good signal when I need it is good, but I'd be pretty pissed if I got to a game where I DID need and didn't have it. The real problem is you will never know until it's too late at a con...You are already their, what do you do then?
While I didn't try using HLO during Gen Con this year (I don't play Starfinder and didn't need to make a character for my one Playtest session) I can comment a bit on Internet in the ICC and close-in northern hotels. For reference, I have an older phone on T-Mobile, which I sometimes use for a hotspot for my Windows tablet.
I've had decent luck the last couple of years on the upstairs edges in the ICC; HLO users are probably getting helped quite a bit by the Paizo events being in the Sagamore.
I've never had good reception in the covered rooms on the first floor and this year was no exception. I've had mixed luck in recent years in the Exhibit Halls, but unfortunately I didn't use the Internet on my phone there this year.
Many of the hotels nowadays are giving free WiFi in the lobby areas. We were in the Westin this year and had free WiFi in the sleeping rooms as well. In previous years I have had no luck using phone-based internet during the day and early evening in my hotel room.
I've had decent luck the last couple of years on the upstairs edges in the ICC; HLO users are probably getting helped quite a bit by the Paizo events being in the Sagamore.
I've never had good reception in the covered rooms on the first floor and this year was no exception. I've had mixed luck in recent years in the Exhibit Halls, but unfortunately I didn't use the Internet on my phone there this year.
Many of the hotels nowadays are giving free WiFi in the lobby areas. We were in the Westin this year and had free WiFi in the sleeping rooms as well. In previous years I have had no luck using phone-based internet during the day and early evening in my hotel room.
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Many of you may find the new thread I just created of interest, as it seeks to provide some insight into our "vision" with HLOnline and touches on some of the comments and concerns made upthread. You'll find it here:
http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=61062
http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=61062