If you're creating HLO as an evolution are you taking a hard look at the HL XML and scripting support? HL works great if you use it straight out of the box for a supported game system using every option or with defined options presented in the various sources. However many of us don't do that. The process of getting HL to present to my players only the options allowed in my campaign has simply never worked. I write code for a living and did not go into this expecting it to be simple but I also wasn't willing to devote many hours to something as simple as disallowing certain classes/races/archetypes and adding some languages and deities.
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- The Lone Wolf Development Team
Hero Lab Online and Starfinder Q&A
- Thread starter rob
- Start date
Thanks. I either missed that or failed to recall it.
It certainly wasn't intended that way. As a gamer myself for over 40 years, and having worked in the gaming industry for nearly 20 years, I consider that statement a simple observation of what I've witnessed. In my extensive experience, gamers, as a whole, don't respond well to change.
I did not intend to offend anyone, nor did I intend to dismiss anyone's concerns lightly. Quite the opposite, in fact. As you stated yourself, my post sought to address many of the concerns that have been voiced and explain the rationale behind our approach.
To you and anyone else that I unintentionally offended by my statement, I apologize.
We don't have plans to do this ourselves, but definitely stay tuned for more on this very subject in the upcoming months...
Absolutely. The single worst part of scripting in HL is the UI components. That's been completely redone, from top to bottom. That drawback of doing that is that putting Starfinder on HLClassic would require us to rewrite the UI all over again from scratch - on an arguably inferior platform. And that's why we aren't doing that right now.
In addition, all the game system infrastructure for Starfinder has been massively overhauled. That will make extending and customizing the game system significantly easier for everyone. We can't realistically do this for existing game systems, since that would break all the custom content that's been developed for them. However, Starfinder is a brand new game system, so we have that luxury and have taken advantage of it.
Oops. Somehow I missed this one in my first pass of answering questions here...
That's not the current plan, no. Custom content is expected to be integrated into the master version and keyed to the users who are granted access to it.
pauljathome
Member
Perhaps "Scroll Plenty"My sentiments exactly.
Sadly, that would be telling. And I can't do that at this juncture.
Winterfyre
Member
Since HLC is currently paying all the bills, I suspect HLC will be supported for quite a while. If HLO starts making more money that HLC, then you might want to start getting worried about HLC, but that would probably need to be like 3:1 ratio or better before you should be concerned. {Speculation of course
HLC supports the company via the data packages I suspect. Once they convert a system to HLO you they will still make the money of the data packages, but it sounds like they will now need to develop two version for each release, but intend to only charge us once. In essence there development cost will increase, so either our cost to buy needs to go up or they need to sell a lot more copies or discontinue one of the 2 lines, which would obviously be HLC.
This tells me the entire point of HLO is likely to force every member of the gaming group to buy HLO, all of the data packs the group is using and pay a monthly subscription fee in order to drive the number of data packs sold.
Does anyone really think it would be a good idea to tell a new player at the table, thanks for coming, but you need to dump $200 on a program & data packs and pay a monthly subscription fee in order to play with our group?
I've yet to see anything addressing multiple players in the party and how much each person has to pay via program / subscription / data packs to play via HLO.
Winterfyre
Member
The Hero Lab Engine has to run somewhere. It's an incredibly complex piece of code that provides a custom language for defining everything for each game system. So we either have to port that to EACH DEVICE or we run it on a server. Porting it to each device is utterly impractical for our tiny team, so we're going to run it on a server and use a web-based solution to access it. And running it on a server lets us do a heck of a lot more with the product than simply putting the Engine on every device.
I'm not sure how else to explain this. Everything that users have purchased in the past will continue to run smoothly for them. It's only the new stuff we're doing with Starfinder and Hero Lab Online itself that work differently. There is no requirement that you use them. If you don't find the new options appealing, then you are free to not use them - and pay absolutely nothing.
I bought into starfinder to the tune of over $300 ONLY because you promised us Starfinder support, at the time I made those purchases via HLC and at the end of the month. Again I ONLY got into the system because LWD indicated character creation by the end of last month, so HLO, no subscription fee, etc.
So I have ALREADY paid to use your software for starfinder, because you couldn't be bothered to update your thread in a timely manner.
Secondly you continue to say "Everything that users have purchased in the past will continue to run smoothly for them". I expect that will be true, but what that doesn't tell anyone is weather the next pathfinder rulebook, expansion or whatnot after pathfinder migrates to HLO will ever be made into a HLC release.
So yes, you will support HLC forever, but how long before you stop releasing new material for it?
I understand you need to present this picture perfect view and make everything smell rosy and nice, you're out of business if you don't, so the answer will of course be Forever!!, but if you can't make enough money to support Realmworks properly how do you ever expect anyone to believe that you can afford to develop two versions of every data pack once you port to HLO, but charge us once without jacking the price?
i suspect for the data packages they will have a conversion program. Now if a new feat/etc needs new features added to the core program then yes it will need to be done twice. HLC isn't going away anytime in the near future.
Apparently you think LWD is a malicous company only out for the money. If you really believe this, you should really stop using their software and don't but anymore.
I don't typically play with new players, I have a group of 9 others I play with regularly, only one doesn't own Hero Lab, but he uses my iPad to play with. If I did have a new player come in, I would probably buy another license and let them use one of spare laptops.
Multiple players will cost the same as now, except the $2/month per account, each account can have 5 licenses. The data packages pricing will remain the same I imagine. You can do the math here.
$300 on what? They don't have Starfinder content to buy.
One thing I haven't seen talked about that I still really want to know.
I have 5 licenses for my fairly large group of data sets. If I roll into HLO are we going to be able to use something like concurrent log in up to our license count or is this a crafty way to get me to pay 5 subscriptions? I am fond of using good tools to make my gaming enjoyable but if this is addressed poorly I'm going to be a sad panda.
I have 5 licenses for my fairly large group of data sets. If I roll into HLO are we going to be able to use something like concurrent log in up to our license count or is this a crafty way to get me to pay 5 subscriptions? I am fond of using good tools to make my gaming enjoyable but if this is addressed poorly I'm going to be a sad panda.
This is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we have been repeatedly stating. So I'm at a loss for how to make this clear. Regardless, I will try again.
The game system infrastructure IS NOT CHANGING for existing games. That means that we can support them on BOTH PLATFORMS, with negligible extra effort. One set of data files works on both platforms, with a few minor tweaks.
In contrast, the UI has to be completely re-written for both platforms. But that only happens ONCE. Not on an ongoing basis, as is the case for data packages. The UI development cost for each game system is part of getting everything converted to HLOnline, so it's a one-time cost that we've planned for. We believe that users will want the features and device access afforded by HLOnline, so they will want all their games available on the platform. Hence it's in our best interests to offer that.
This is also the reason we are NOT bringing Starfinder to HLClassic initially. We would have to invest in all the work to re-implement the UI. And doing the UI on HLClassic is significantly more work than doing it for HLOnline. We are avoiding that specifically to avoid the accompanying resource costs.
As for the rest of your assertions, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I view things very differently from you and find your examples to be highly unlikely to occur within the vast majority of gaming groups. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I expect things to play out very differently from you, and that means our respective visions can't coexist in the same space. Only time will tell which of us is right.