illuminatispy
New member
I'd like to be able to export to a format compatible with importing into Fantasy Grounds, like D20 is.
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- The Lone Wolf Development Team
What changes/enhancements would you like to see?
- Thread starter CapedCrusader
- Start date
Looks like we're wish-listing a bit here, but I'd really like to see the Editor to be a bit more user friendly. I've been trying to teach myself it over the last couple of weeks and some of it is intuitive and some of it is beyond most of us. Would love to see options such as "minimum Strength for armor" and "toughness added for armor" in the Editor instead of code speak via strings. It was more nicely done for weapons and easier to use there. The easier Editor is to use, the more likely some of us can be of more help with these data files.
If we must stick with coding/scripting, create a list of coding to accomplish specific things. Such as the coding script for Toughness added to armor. The coding script for Strength minimum. A list of cut and paste scripting we can use to accomplish almost anything.
If we must stick with coding/scripting, create a list of coding to accomplish specific things. Such as the coding script for Toughness added to armor. The coding script for Strength minimum. A list of cut and paste scripting we can use to accomplish almost anything.
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The lack of need to code things as a user is a great idea. The editor would generate the code for you, based on what you want it to do.
The "Help" file being unhelpful has been a concern for many. It is easier to just come to the forums and ask. Chances are that someone either knows the answer or can figure it out.
The "Help" file being unhelpful has been a concern for many. It is easier to just come to the forums and ask. Chances are that someone either knows the answer or can figure it out.
That is a personal choice. I am curious how you know it to be "most people". I would think that the answer is really "most people do not want to have to code just to add something into their data set. Period.". That is something that could be said without having to make a survey (which I usually will not fill out).
Many of the feature requests that we have require more work than people want to put into Hero Lab. That is my main frustration with Hero Lab, as it feels like other than the handful of people that come to these forums that it is pretty much a "dead product". There are things that could, and should, be revised. Making an editor that does not require people to code and play directly with an XML file is one such addition. Ideally, you would not need a specific editor at all. You should be able to click on edges and then something like "create edge", where you choose if it is to add to the character directly or to a broader data file. This is all doable, and are features of the program that I am working on. I (and my gaming group) are my primary users, but the ease of use is a key design consideration. One of my groups is composed entirely of software developers and even then I am the only one that is willing to muck around with Hero Lab code. That shows me that even people who write code do not want to have to do it just to manage their characters.
Many of the feature requests that we have require more work than people want to put into Hero Lab. That is my main frustration with Hero Lab, as it feels like other than the handful of people that come to these forums that it is pretty much a "dead product". There are things that could, and should, be revised. Making an editor that does not require people to code and play directly with an XML file is one such addition. Ideally, you would not need a specific editor at all. You should be able to click on edges and then something like "create edge", where you choose if it is to add to the character directly or to a broader data file. This is all doable, and are features of the program that I am working on. I (and my gaming group) are my primary users, but the ease of use is a key design consideration. One of my groups is composed entirely of software developers and even then I am the only one that is willing to muck around with Hero Lab code. That shows me that even people who write code do not want to have to do it just to manage their characters.
I am not a programmer of any kind, yet I love using Hero Lab for character creation. However, I can only use it a little, especially now that my gaming group is doing Savage Rifts. I don't believe Hero Labs is a "dead product" but rather needs to be updated to become more user friends. I do agree that something simple such as the "create edge" option is perfect. The same for all the other features. When you create it, make it so that you can save it permanently to the file so it doesn't have to be created each time. I can't think of a good reason this can't be done other than the initial investment in time by our programmers. However, think about the huge amount of time that would be saved by all the other "users" out there who could readily share their files with everyone else. I'd gladly share as I'm not shy about putting in the work. I am shy about the learning curve to learn how to program for just this product.
You're certainly correct about the second half of your statement, but as to your first, that's a simple extension of the fact that most people in any hobby or with any product don't do forums, so why should this be any different?
Well, the answer of course is, that they can; it just requires a game system that is extremely self-contained and where extensions to it are still in the context of the already present game system elements. The problem is that game systems like Savage Worlds or Pathfinder aren't those systems. When new elements are added to them, they're essentially ad-hoc components that do one-off things in many cases.
But if you're running a game that entirely just uses the SW core, there's no need for a player to every mess with the editor, and for the GM only to the degree that he wants to do custom monsters or not. Its only when they want to forge into new territory that you run into that necessity.
But as a contrast, you have games like Mutants and Masterminds where you can have people who never have the need to use the editor at all.
So its not an intrinsic problem, but in part a problem because some games, while they might have a consistent structure, don't have notably consistent elements.
I'd just like to note that, depending on what additions one wants to add, the latter can be overstated. While they do use the Editor, there are a lot of things that are pretty much trivial to learn to add to HL, that can be added just by copying a similar things and changing a couple of lines and toggles. As an example, when creating a new monster in SW, the most complicated thing you'll have to learn to do for the most part is how to bootstrap abilities; the rest of it is mostly self-evident when you look at an extent monster file, and much of it is just using selectors.
The less something looks like something a given game system has already done, the more you find yourself out on the hinterlands of having to actually figure out the syntax of things like eval scripts and the like, and that does get into some actual coding. But its possible to overrepresent how often and how much a routine user has to do that (as in, for many people the answer can be "not at all").
Here are a couple of bugs.
1) The claws and natural weapons are made to replace the Unarmed damage. This is not a part of the official rules, as shown to us in the Pinnacle forums. While it is true that you would want to use claws in place of a punch, having claws does not mean that you cannot use unarmed combat. Instead the claws, bite, tail, and horns should be natural weapons that are bootstrapped to the character.
2) Regarding natural weapons bootstrapped to a character, there do not really need to be all that many options. Each different monster does not need its own entry. Claws that do d4 are claws that do d4. This is not as much as a bug as that the core data should provide generic versions that are then in turn used by the different creatures. This is not as much a bug as an unnecessary bloat in data.
3) The races that have natural weapons, such as the Rakshaasan have their weapons bypass the minimum strength. That is, even when a Rakshasan has a strength of d4 the claws are listed as doing Str+d6.
Naturally, I have fixed all of the above in my own code. I made an eval script that looks at my versions of the generic natural weapons and my version of Natural Warrior (the only difference being that it has no eval script of its own).
1) The claws and natural weapons are made to replace the Unarmed damage. This is not a part of the official rules, as shown to us in the Pinnacle forums. While it is true that you would want to use claws in place of a punch, having claws does not mean that you cannot use unarmed combat. Instead the claws, bite, tail, and horns should be natural weapons that are bootstrapped to the character.
2) Regarding natural weapons bootstrapped to a character, there do not really need to be all that many options. Each different monster does not need its own entry. Claws that do d4 are claws that do d4. This is not as much as a bug as that the core data should provide generic versions that are then in turn used by the different creatures. This is not as much a bug as an unnecessary bloat in data.
3) The races that have natural weapons, such as the Rakshaasan have their weapons bypass the minimum strength. That is, even when a Rakshasan has a strength of d4 the claws are listed as doing Str+d6.
Naturally, I have fixed all of the above in my own code. I made an eval script that looks at my versions of the generic natural weapons and my version of Natural Warrior (the only difference being that it has no eval script of its own).
This one is going to be totally pie in the sky and probably way down on anyones priority list, but it's been my go-to for everything lately... I'd like an output format direct from HL into the Fantasy Grounds character format. I know I can always just use the stat-block forma with the NPC extension to pull a character into FG and then convert it into a character, but that does require a lot of extra work getting things formatted fully for a character rather than what would be appropriate for an NPC.
I find these days I'm using HL to create and update my characters to help check their "legality" and figure out derived traits and such but it ends up being FG that I use at the tabletop (yeah, at the actual tabletop, not just for VTT gaming, since I've got a monitor lying flat on our gaming table making it easy to use that for rolls and such and, for one game anyway, even for running combats.) I may be the only one who would care about something like that, but I just had to make the request.
I find these days I'm using HL to create and update my characters to help check their "legality" and figure out derived traits and such but it ends up being FG that I use at the tabletop (yeah, at the actual tabletop, not just for VTT gaming, since I've got a monitor lying flat on our gaming table making it easy to use that for rolls and such and, for one game anyway, even for running combats.) I may be the only one who would care about something like that, but I just had to make the request.
The Advances tab has a link for "Add New Advances" but it can be a little confusing that there are several other things that can be done from there that are not Advances, such as adding Permanent Injuries and New Hindrances (and maybe if my other suggestion about adding other non-Edge/Hindrance things is implemented those might go here as well.) As such I think the name of the tab and the link are not descriptive enough to all of the things that can be done from this tab. I'll have to mull over something nice and succinct as a suggestion for a name, but I'm not very good at succinct. :/
If possible it might be better to just have a "Options" tab where the many non-Advances go. Then we can add in things like rank advancement (military rank). I have gotten around this by making 0-cost edges that are looked at by an eval script inside of the edge that gave the initial rank. I think my example on the forums is for Deadlands.
Also, the ability to have some customization with the Derived Traits would be awesome, especially if we can choose whether or not it is printed (like Edges, Hindrances, and Racial abilities). Then we could make use of setting-specific values that are used for other things. Plus we could add in a simple eval script that makes it not print if its value is 0.
Also, the ability to have some customization with the Derived Traits would be awesome, especially if we can choose whether or not it is printed (like Edges, Hindrances, and Racial abilities). Then we could make use of setting-specific values that are used for other things. Plus we could add in a simple eval script that makes it not print if its value is 0.
I just noticed an issue in my Weird Wars Rome file that probably exists in some others. I noticed that I have equipment that does certain things, like the Corona Civica providing a +2 to Charisma, but that effect is always active (even if I drop the item into a pack or on the ground). Would it be possible to get the abilActive flag set on equipment so I can choose if my character is "wearing" that gear to get its effects or not?
CapedCrusader
Well-known member
Ah, we just added this... we needed it for Exoskeletons.
Gear now has the Equipped flag available. Check exo's for the example.
Gear now has the Equipped flag available. Check exo's for the example.
jfrazierjr
Well-known member
I for one would like races to get thier own dedicated tab and a few "extra" dropdown and text field variables available. Likewise for racial properties.
CapedCrusader
Well-known member
The main reason the Races definitions aren't in the standard interface because players aren't normally allowed to edit them. Those are GM-only, so they are just available in the Editor.
jfrazierjr
Well-known member
Sorry, perhaps I am being dense here, but I really don't follow here. I am not quite sure what you mean about players able to edit and how it would relate.
To(hopefully) illustrate my point, I have two examples. The first is straight out of the Fantasy Companion.
The way this is currently implemented as two copies of the race each with different bootstraps for the choice chosen.
Now, I will grant that this is probably FAR easier for the simple case and more importantly for a simple use would require no extra coding, though if you want the actual race name to be a singular for both, you would have to add
Code:
field[livename].text = "Half-Elven"The second example is from Shaintar:
So how would you code up the above, in detail? So to be clear, the use case is:
I want to pick a human and a sub-race of human. In THIS case, the sub-race does make a difference because access to some human only edges is limited to the sub-race also. For example, the "Desert Born" Edge is limited to Humans of the Youlin-Aradi "sub-race".
Then there is the pesky business of a of x free skills at d6. Yes, you could just give extra skill points, but what if(for the sake of argument here), WHICH skill is chosen is important, perhaps for some future edge pre-requisites. Now this may be a way out there case, but until recently, so was a character with more than one Arcane Background.
In the later case(Shaintar Human), what I would expect based upon the way other game systems in HeroLab are configured, would be a Race tab with a drop down with the various races. Then, if a race has a sub-race, the sub-race field would become visible and allow choosing of the sub-race. Likewise, if the race or sub-race requires a choice such as which skill is my free d6 skill, a list of all skills would be presented and the user would pick the skill to be granted. Of course the would have to be code behind all of these choices, but I imagine the UI would be cleaner.
Note that I am not implementing Shaintar and it's human sub-races, but that's really beside the point as it's meant to show the concept of child "things" which are part of the Race and why I believe having it's own tab makes sense in some circumstances as well as the option to have multiple child chooser fields available for data authors or even just simple at home GM's to utilize as they see fit. There could even be a UI checkbox on the load screen JUST LIKE the "Multiple races" to allow the current method of a single popup box OR a dedicated tab for the more complex cases(in theory, I have no idea how much control one has once you get to the source options checkbox popup window).
I also realize that changing a UI is a decent sized task and I understand it's not something that would be implemented in just a few days of work and released. All I am asking is for it to be put into the queue for future consideration to be worked on.