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Realm Works & VTT Questions

J

Jay_NOLA

Well-known member
Hey I was looking at using a VTT program with Realm Works and had some questions on what program I ought to use and for any tips in using one with Realm Works.

I do know that VTTs got discussed in a few threads in the past, but I saw no screen shoots of using one in conjunction with Realm Works and I am aware that some are easier to user and some are better for certain games.

Ok so first up:
I'd be using Realm Works and the VTT only for these games:

Labyrinth Lord
Stars Without Number
OSRIC
Qin
Kuro
Starships & Spacemen (1st and 2nd ed)
2e AD&D (I've got the core rules 2.0 & expansion)
FATE

So 1st what VTT would be better given my game choices? (Labyrinth Lord and Stars Without Number is what most of my Realm Works realms has the most currently done. If any VTT has a plug in for them how good is it.)

I would want to use the VTT mostly on my laptop and have it connected to a big screen TV at my house or a friend's as a 2nd monitor and have the VTT show on it for offline play.

No idea if I would be doing online play at anytime.

I don't have net access at home so offline use is important?

How much duplicate entry will I need to do. If I have a dungeon fully worked up in Realm Works will it be difficult to port the information, etc. into the VTT. (I do know that some just don't display maps and can actually do combat etc., but no idea how well given the games I listed.

Can some one post screen shots or video of how it looks using one in conjunction to show off stuff.

Thanks
 
It depends how far you want to go. I have been experimenting with things like MapTool or Mote (a spin-off from Maptool). They provide tokens to move around a virtual table top as well as some level of line-of sight viewing, and lighting.

They can also provide dice rolling and all the mechanics (with a bit of work), but if you're playing table-top then those aren't required in the VTT.
 
Your instantly going to have issues with the 2 popular ones. Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds both require internet access to my knowledge.

I use MapTool and would recommend it. You run 2x clients on your laptop. One as a server and one as the client.

Move the client to the tv and make it full screen.

Use the server to control the maps, LOS, FOG, tokens (i use real minis). I've heard it has functionality to build in macros to handle dice rolls etc, personally we roll real dice.

All you need to do is copy in your maps and that's enough to get you going. You want player versions of the maps where possible. If you want to use the LOS (which lets you assign light sources to tokens) then you need to setup walls on the maps as well which can take a bit of time.

Here's a picture of my setup.
 
I'm currently using MapTool alongside Realm Works, and I've had pretty good luck with it so far.

MapTool can be a little intimidating because of all the scripting that can be done with it, but it actually works pretty well out of the gate for basic token movement, line of sight, lighting, etc.

To really make it sing, you need to spend some time with the scripting language. However, this means that you can really tune it to exactly what you need for it to do - and there are a lot of tutorials and such out there to build what you want. As long as you aren't scared to roll up your sleeves and do a little coding you can get some pretty cool set ups going. I can honestly say MapTool has completely revolutionized our tabletop. I remember the first time I took my group into a dungeon with full lighting and line of sight reveal in place, and it was pretty cool. There is a real tension that comes from only being able to see what your character can see as you explore the room.

Personally, I have MapTool running as a server on one computer, and I have Realm Works and a client instance of MapTool running on a second computer that is connected to the big display. It can get a little clunky at times, but over all, it works pretty well.

MapTool also has the advantage of being free, so I'd say it's worth checking out because why not. It has more options in it's base form than some of the paid VTTs have even with a subscription. And because it is driven by scripting, you can adapt it to any game system.

I highly recommend a VTT for in person games when using a battlemat centric system (like Pathfinder/3.5). It takes a little more time up front to set up maps before the session, but being able to have actual lighting and line of sight at the table, and being able to stop mid-exploration (or even mid-fight) by just saving the file and shutting down is really handy.
 
In my efforts to meet with local Realm Works (RW) users, one DM I visited runs his D&D Adventurers' League games with RW in conjunction with Fantasy Grounds (FG) from Smite Works.

From MY perspective seeing it in action one time:

PLUSES
Main plus is that you can run your game offline. No need for an internet connection.
Awesome for in-person games. He had a large LCD screen laying flat on the table to be used as the battlemap. I was impressed at how quickly he was able to open and properly size and grid a map in fantasy grounds for at-table play.

MINUSES
Lot's of duplicative/extra work. If I want to have my smart maps in RW, I also have to set them up in FG. I think that if I were to use a VTT in conjunction with RW, I wouldn't use RW for any battlemaps, only for large area maps. FG would take over most dungeon and encounter-size maps. I would prefer to have all my maps in RW. I would be nice if I could send-to FG from RW.

You may have to buy content twice. If you are buying content from CM for RW and content for Hero Labs (HL), and you want to use FG, you'll likely need to buy the same content for FG. Seems like you would be buying a lot of duplicative content just to have it work in different applications.

Again, this is my perspective for having someone demo RW with FG to me for a short period of time and only one time. I do not own and have not used FG.
 
JustinThomason said:
To really make it sing, you need to spend some time with the scripting language. However, this means that you can really tune it to exactly what you need for it to do - and there are a lot of tutorials and such out there to build what you want. As long as you aren't scared to roll up your sleeves and do a little coding you can get some pretty cool set ups going. I can honestly say MapTool has completely revolutionized our tabletop. I remember the first time I took my group into a dungeon with full lighting and line of sight reveal in place, and it was pretty cool. There is a real tension that comes from only being able to see what your character can see as you explore the room.
Click to expand...

"To really make it sing" --> "To have MapTool do all the rules work for you" :-)
 
MNBlockHead said:
MINUSES
Lot's of duplicative/extra work. If I want to have my smart maps in RW, I also have to set them up in FG. I think that if I were to use a VTT in conjunction with RW, I wouldn't use RW for any battlemaps, only for large area maps. FG would take over most dungeon and encounter-size maps. I would prefer to have all my maps in RW. I would be nice if I could send-to FG from RW.

You may have to buy content twice. If you are buying content from CM for RW and content for Hero Labs (HL), and you want to use FG, you'll likely need to buy the same content for FG. Seems like you would be buying a lot of duplicative content just to have it work in different applications.
Click to expand...

If you are using FG only for the virtual map, and not for all the rules, then you don't need to purchase any rules sets from FG; but in this configuration it is just an expensive MapTool without the lighting effects (at least last time I checked)>
 
@everyone who replied

Thanks for the replies back. I've downloaded Map Too and will try it out when I get my laptop back. (My screen cracked and I'm stuck on a library computer till the replacement screen arrives.)

I'm not sure how tough customizing is going to. How tough is Map Toll customization and scripting. Is it harder than making a new system for Hero Lab use. (I have the HL authoring kit and found it too difficult to work with to do a new game system from scratch.)

@MNBlockHead

The duplicate content that you mentioned was an issue. The Fantasy Grounds content is very pricey, some times twice the price of a print version.

The only thing is I have no interest in any of the systems that I know content is or will be duplicated in products and the planned Realm Works content that I'm aware of I don't have an interest in.

For the systems I'm interested in Fantasy Grounds free content for Labyrinth Lord & OSRIC, but I'm not sure how good this is.

I did see a video on module set up and it looks like a lot of duplication if you were to set up a module in it and wanted Fantasy Grounds to automate some stuff. Looks like a lot of cutting and pasting. The only nice thing was is that it did all of the dice rolling instantly and updated HP in a video demo I saw.

So it looks to be very pricey VTT but if it could automate combat, etc. and that was free and worked well for some of the systems I'm playing it might be worth it.

I'm going to look into this a bit more. Thanks.
 
If you play PF or 5e, d20pro is a good option to consider. It has a free trial. Of the VTT's it is my preference for ease of use, reasonable cost and off-line capabilities. The other piece that is HUGE for me is that it has a very active development team. The automation of combat is a godsend and I'd run it without a second monitor or remote users just for that.
 
It may be a little late, but HERE is a comparison chart.

It is provided by one of the competitors on the chart, but it may be helpful.
 
Thanks! I'd never heard of Battle Grounds.

Initial reaction was "meh, another VTT..." until I read the following:

"Battlegrounds was largely designed with face-to-face use in mind. Includes Fullscreen feature and extra-fine-grain zoom controls to assist alignment in projector-based setups."

So now I'm intrigued. Silveras, do you use Battle Grounds?
 
MNBlockHead said:
Thanks! I'd never heard of Battle Grounds.

Initial reaction was "meh, another VTT..." until I read the following:

"Battlegrounds was largely designed with face-to-face use in mind. Includes Fullscreen feature and extra-fine-grain zoom controls to assist alignment in projector-based setups."

So now I'm intrigued. Silveras, do you use Battle Grounds?
Click to expand...

No, I have not used it myself. I had run across a previous version of the comparison page, before Roll20 was added, some time ago, and saw it had refreshed a few months ago.

I'm already invested in Fantasy Grounds, D20Pro, and Roll20. I had done a little exploring of MapTools some time ago. I invested in the D20Pro kickstarter, and am following developments there.

Each has its strong points.

The Fantasy Grounds community support has really been amazing in extending the 3.5/Pathfinder rule sets. The "Party Sheet" functionality embodies a lot of what people would like to see in HeroLab's Tactical Console (XP and gold distribution, for example, are often requested in the Pathfinder forum). But while RealmWorks is not trying to be a VTT, and not trying to compete with VTTs (even if some people are asking for VTT-like features)... Fantasy Grounds is expanding its campaign management tools (at least for specific game systems), and is becoming a competitor with RealmWorks in that space. It is providing some of the features people are asking for here (rollable tables, for example).

D20Pro has been doing a lot with removable "tiles" on maps (such as a removable roof for a building), and the demonstration images show some very interesting "3D" models for creatures. objects, and structures on the maps. EDIT: I should add that current work features implementing an "any system" plug-in API for rules and anything else needed, in order to make D20Pro not so D20-dependent anymore.

Roll20's strength is its relative simplicity and ease of access, as a web-based tool. EDIT: I should also add that beyond the free features, the dynamic lighting tools and special effects engine (animated flames look so cool) that are available to paying supporters add a lot to the experience.

Overall, I think Fantasy Grounds could become the biggest competitor to RealmWorks (out of the ones I have actually worked with). RealmWorks' rules-agnostic approach is both a strength and a weakness. A strength because it allows one code base to serve any game system... a weakness because GMs may not want a single code base with no system-specific features (such as rollable tables to generate weather, or spur-of-the-moment details like the customers in a bar). GMs want tools to make running their games easier.. and those tools probably need to automate game-system-specific tasks in order to really make the GM's life easier. That there is now a means to choose which Game System a Realm is "formatted" for at creation is a nod to this.. but it may not be enough to compete as the VTTs add campaign management features. Because, in the end, when the GM runs his/her game, it becomes game-system-specific.
 
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daplunk said:
Know of any good videos showing the Fantasy Grounds campaign management @work?
Click to expand...

HERE are the official videos accessible through the launch screen of Fantasy Grounds.

Now, for all that Fantasy Grounds does, it is still not on the same scale as RealmWorks for campaign management. And it is not usable by the players between sessions for reference as RealmWorks is. On the other hand, that doesn't matter much to some players/groups. If the players can't put time into the game between sessions, then it doesn't really matter if RealmWorks makes the content available at those times.

Features I like*
  • In-persona chat: You can select what character to speak "as".
  • Language Support: If you have the language mod installed, and you specify the language your current "persona" is speaking, Players of characters who do not speak the language will see a symbol font instead of clear text. Players of characters who do speak the language will see clear text.
  • Unidentified Items: If an item has not been identified, its name is masked and description locked so that players cannot see it until it has been identified.
  • Party Sheet: Summary sheet for the party as a whole, showing all characters' current combat data, and allowing "group operations" (such as awarding XP, allocating treasure, and automating group skill checks {one-click to roll a Perception check for all})
  • Re-usability: Your prepared campaigns, resources, and adventures can be "exported" to "modules". The "modules" can then be loaded, singly or in groups, to run your campaign repeatedly with different players, or other combinations.

*Note that availability of features is game-system dependent. Not all systems support all of these features, as many are sourced from the community. What I list here is based on Pathfinder.

Things I don't like...
  • Variability between systems: Because many of the innovations come from the community, they are game-system specific. If you are not playing the game system a feature was developed for, you may never see it migrate to your preferred system (unless you learn to do it yourself).
  • LUA based: The system uses a modified of LUA scripting. This is not something I've run across other than with Fantasy Grounds.
  • Clunky Implementations: The emphasis is sometimes on getting things IN, rather than on having them be smooth and polished in the process. The implementation for some combat Feats, for example, required entering them as Spells in order to make them available as applicable effects and not just text.
  • Reliance on the Community: Aside from the innovative functionality, which has been great, sometimes SmiteWorks (the makers of Fantasy Grounds) relies too much on the community to provide core data. For example, the Bestiaries and Magic Items for Pathfinder were, for a long time, only those from the Core Rulebooks. The Community used other data sources to compile unofficial collections of monsters and magic items, as well as rulebooks beyond the core (Advanced Players Guide, for example).
 
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Thanks Silveras,

I had forgotten about Battle Grounds. I heard of that one several years back via a CC3 tutorial on making battle maps. (Side Note: I'm going to have to do a mapping software post listing the pro's and cons of the various main ones since I've used and own the major ones.)

Fantasy Grounds is looking like it might be the better buy, since you just need 1 ultimate for the GM and free version for players if I ever opted to run an online game.

I also saw a Fantasy Grounds tutorial on importing Hero Lab data into it which looks like it might be another plus If Hero Lab had more systems.
 
@daplunk,

Yes, in Fantasy Grounds you can create a .mod file that contains all your maps, text, vision blocking, etc.

However, you can't double-click it and have it open FG. So I'm guessing what can do with a MT campaign file you can't do with Fantasy Grounds.


Dave
 
I just watched the Fantasy Grounds videos on campaign management.

Wow... that looks absolutely horrid.

The UI is no where near as user friendly as RW. And by that I mean you actually have to go out of your way to learn how FG works. It's a good look, but the UI is too unique and the focus is on a visibly pleasing experience versus something that would actually provide efficiency for me at the table.

The concept of having to put images into a Windows folder before you can use them in the application. Didn't like the idea of that at all.

The biggest take away for me, was he was planning on his prep. He had to think about what he wanted to prep before he started his prep. With Realm Works I just, do it. Want an NPC, create a Hero Lab snippet and build it using the character creator. Want a picture, open up Google Images and copy and paste straight into Realm Works.

Organisation of content was very limited. I imagine it would be next to impossible to manage with the amount of content I have entered so far.

RW is leaps and bounds ahead from what I saw. Thanks, I have been curious for a while.
 
In Fantasy Grounds, that "organization scheme" is part of what Modules are about. You would create your Adventure (with all Story elements, NPCs, Items, Tokens, etc.) then export that to a Module. Your active campaign would then activate those Modules from the Library window, and each of the other element windows (Story, NPCs, Items, Images, etc.) would then have a tab for each Module loaded (though they can also merge if you decide to index them with that in mind).

So to do a 6-part Adventure Path, you might create 6 (or more) Modules, one for each part of the adventure, with the NPCs, Story elements, Images, etc. needed for each. Then in a 7th Campaign, you would load and activate the other 6 as modules to run the adventures with them. You could reduce clutter by loading only the ones you need, but that means your organization overall may need to be less "by book" (for cases where NPCs are present in multiple parts, for example, that could be a hassle).
 
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