DnD 5e DMs and Players - be sure to mention RW in current survey

[MNBlockHead]

WoTC just put up its 7th survey. I made sure to complete it honestly and to tell them why I am not buying their published adventures: I don't like DMing an adventure from a book and urged them to make their material available in RealmWorks.

Survey here:

http://sgiz.mobi/s3/D-D-5e-Elements-Survey-7

 

[Dark Lord Galen]

I must say I wasn't surprised by the content of the survey. Just another expedition in what can we regurgitate to get into your wallet by our "friends" at WOC. Though did find it interesting that they are gathering ammo for an attack at the Gencon promoters...
I can here it now... Our survey has shown that most of the people that we surveyed don't care that we attend your venue, naturally we have to follow what the masses have suggested.
Unless, of course, you make it lucrative for us not to listen to them.....

BTW, Thanks for the link MNB.... Like you I don't DM out of the can and certainly not regurgitated adventures stolen from the best, original campaign setting...... Greyhawk.

Lastly, I was on the beta review for 5e, and after more than a year of "reviewing" I simply couldn't embrace it. But some find it acceptable, and such is their choice.... it just saddens me that WOC spends so much time Re-inventing rulesets instead of supporting what's in place AND then expect the masses to continually cough up $100+ to keep re-buying the latest rendition / edition. You would think after all this time WOC would wake up and realize Paizo (and other third partys) have been kicking their A#^ with 3.5 / 3.75 for YEARS.

Just my 2cp
DLG

 

[Parody]

WotC/Hasbro has already eliminated their presence at Gen Con; another company organizes Adventurer's League events on their behalf and (according to reports) WotC staff participation and "swag support" was minimal this year. The company running those events had a backlash because people had paid quite a bit for All-Access passes which had better benefits in previous years. The organizers eventually got WotC/Hasbro to give them some extra stuff to hand out.

My guess is if WotC/Hasbro wants to have a summer event of some kind going forward it'll be at PAX Prime.

 

[kbs666]

Wizards/Hasbro blew it with 4th. 3.5 was a great rule set and everyone I knew was very happy with it. Then 4th came out and it was an abomination. So we all went to Pathfinder and never looked back. Now our investment is simply too large to seriously consider switching back no matter how good 5e might be. And this is coming from someone who has been playing something called D&D since the blue box in the late 70's.

 

[Dark Lord Galen]

WotC/Hasbro has already eliminated their presence at Gen Con; another company organizes Adventurer's League events on their behalf and (according to reports) WotC staff participation and "swag support" was minimal this year. The company running those events had a backlash because people had paid quite a bit for All-Access passes which had better benefits in previous years. The organizers eventually got WotC/Hasbro to give them some extra stuff to hand out.

My guess is if WotC/Hasbro wants to have a summer event of some kind going forward it'll be at PAX Prime.

Interesting.... especially since their questionnaire didn't out right leave the impression that they had already pulled the plug... Thanks for the update of clarity Parody....

And your assessment of Pax being the the new target was my thought as well. Especially the one question that asked " If we were to go somewhere else would you go there instead" ....... INTERESTING

Wizards/Hasbro blew it with 4th. 3.5 was a great rule set and everyone I knew was very happy with it. Then 4th came out and it was an abomination. So we all went to Pathfinder and never looked back.

Agreed, but their failure to know the pulse of the market began before the release of 4e.. it actually started with removing Dragon / Dungeon magazines from the control of Paizo (Eric Mona and friends) and thinking hat a digital sale by article was a good idea....

Now our investment is simply too large to seriously consider switching back no matter how good 5e might be.

True, Kinda... but for some, 5e was to make it more simplistic, less of a campaign and more of a quick start game system. For others, it was WOC's attempt at trying to draw back the old gurnards that played 1e and 2e while still hanging on to the 4e players. Hence the "Rebirth" of such classics as The Temple of Elemental Evil ( a Greyhawk 2e original) and soon to come others that they hope to lure the 1/2e back to the table with past glories.... the problem is........... they failed to realize ...............WE DIDNT LEAVE THE TABLE, we just left them behind.

My Greyhawk campaign has been going on 30years this past June, and has had over a hundred PCs and over a thousand NPCs scattered through out literal and Fantasy world generations.

And this is coming from someone who has been playing something called D&D since the blue box in the late 70's.

Welcome Fellow Gurnard... hehe and thanks for being my 500th post.

 

[kbs666]

Don't take me wrong, I like what I've seen of 5e. I just am not interested in trying to convince my players to give up Pathfinder or personally abandoning my own shelf full of 3.5/3.75 products.

Leaving Gencon is simply put a terrible idea. I know they must look like the odd man out compared to Paizo but WotC is still the owner of D&D and that is the legacy of Gygax and Gary founded GenCon it just wouldn't be right to not have them there.

 

[Aaron]

I know that WotC sent one person to the Ennies to pick up their awards this last year, but I think he was alone.

 

[Parody]

Filling in some things:

Mike Mearls (Lead Designer on 5e) said in an interview (linked below) that it's better to give announcements at PAX (Prime) than at Gen Con because they get more people for those at PAX Prime. Gen Con has more people playing games, so they concentrate on gaming events there. They don't do booths at either.

Tome Show Interview with Mike Mearls at Gen Con 2015 (Convention stuff starts around 14:25.) - Summary at ENWorld


Baldman Games is the company that runs D&D AL events at Gen Con and organizes the Winter Fantasy convention. Some items relating to this year's issues:
Statement on the 2015 All Access Program, 2015 AAP Update, and threads from the Baldman Games forums, Gen Con forums (starting at post-Gen Con posts), and Wizards forums


As best I can tell Mike Mearls and Jeremy Crawford were the WotC folks at Gen Con. (Jeremy may have been the one accepting their ENnies.)


On 5e: I have the three main books, and while I'd like to give it a try sometime in a home campaign I haven't played it yet. What I've read makes me think my roommate, a long-time AD&D 2nd Ed. DM who skipped 3.x/PF and 4, might enjoy this version. I haven't convinced him, though.

On a Gen Con presence: I can see both sides here. There's a lot of "out of sight, out of mind" when it comes to not having a presence, even for non-attendees (who might be looking for announcements and other media coverage). However, companies like Games Workshop don't attend Gen Con either and they don't seem to be hurt by not being there. Making their major convention one in their home city (even though its primary focus isn't tabletop gaming) is very attractive, I'm sure. I don't know if that means they continue as they have been or they move even more of their efforts to PAX Prime, but I doubt we'll see any increases in WotC/Hasbro presence outside of Seattle any time soon.

 

[MNBlockHead]

I don't want to get into a WoTC debate here—I really don't have the knowledge to participate meaningfully in such a debate. I played 1st edition and that was it. Never bought 2nd edition and basically stopped roleplaying one I was in college. I've read so many stories similar to mine. Folks that DM'd and played decades ago that got back into roleplaying with DnD 5e. My understanding is that was part of WoTC's market strategy. Bring old players back into the fold and attract brand new players.

I'm at irrational fan-boy levels of love of DnD 5e. This is in part due to the fact that I've not played any TTRPG for a long time, so I'm just happy to be DMing again. It is also partly due to my lack of exposure to other systems (back in the day I played Warhammer, Gamma World, Paranoia and other systems, but nothing since 1990). But it is also because they captured the early spirit of DnD with (in my opinion) far superior (more streamlined, easier to play without constant page flipping) rules.

What I DON'T like about DnD 5e is the dearth of digital tools for the game. At this point I just filter out those who respond with this criticism by saying 5e is so simple, you don't need them. Yeah, maybe if you just buy the small amount of adventure material published by WoTC and like preparing everything on paper. I can't see going back to binders and books after using RW, even if I didn't run a home-brew campaign.

Also, while HL may be off-topic for this forum, there would still be great value in having 5e support in HL.

It is nice to see that DnD 5e content is available through Fantasy Grounds, but it irks me at how slow WoTC moves in regards to supporting various platforms. Maybe it was because they were so focused on DungeonScape that when that fell through they didn't have a strategy for licensing content to other software vendors.

So, I answer their surveys, hoping someone actually reads the comments, and understands that I have no interest in paying lots of money for an adventure I may only play once in a format that is inconvenient. I'd buy their core rules and monster manuals in paper even if they were available digitally since they are beautiful, high-quality books, and I enjoy paging through them, and having them on my book shelf. But I would also pay to have them digitally in RealmWorks and HeroLab.

As for GenCon, I said that WoTC should retain a presence. But this is mostly because of nostalgia. When I went to GenCon in the 80s, it was because of DnD. GenCon without DnD saddens me, even though it is no longer in Lake Geneva (why even call it GenCon now) and even though I've not been to it in decades and am unlikely to go. That said, my nostalgia is of little value to either GenCon or WoTC. It is telling that the CEO of GenCon played in the RW game with the Creative Director of Paizo. PAX may just be a more friendly venue where they get more bang for their marketing bucks.

 

[kbs666]

5e looks like a great edition to come back to or for first timers. It is for lack of a better term a mature game. They took a lot of the lessons learned from the many editions and other RPG's over the last 30 odd years and produced a reasonably simple but deep D&D.

I can certainly see the appeal of playing with only 3 books. I'm trying to get my present Pathfinder ruleset down to less than 20.

WotC going with DungeonScape was a mistake but they obviously wanted to be in a separate space from Pathfinder so they wanted nothing to do with HL. Maybe they will eventually change their mind but I doubt it. I think that inside WotC/Hasbro everything connected to the D20 open game license is viewed with deep antipathy.

BTW you can get a reasonably usable digital character sheet for 5e through Roll20. Not sure if it can be printed though. Roll20 might also provide some of the tools you're looking for, in a rules agnostic fashion obviously.

 

[Dark Lord Galen]

Filling in some things:
................
Mike Mearls (Lead Designer on 5e) said in an interview (linked below) that it's better to give announcements at PAX (Prime) than at Gen Con because they get more people for those at PAX Prime. Gen Con has more people playing games, so they concentrate on gaming events there. They don't do booths at either.

1st thanks for the extras Parody... links very insightful....
I went to Pax last year, and while WOC did have a booth, they were 80% dedicated to pitching "Magic" than promoting the "new 5e". Infact the people present for the 5e were woefully ill-prepared to discuss the product, other than to tell you that "special event pricing". I genuinely felt sorry for one young lady representing them. As many attendees barraged her with questions about the differences between a previous edition (3.x/PF, 4e) the "in can" response was, I'm not really sure, but its so much better and easier to get started.

On 5e: I have the three main books, and while I'd like to give it a try sometime in a home campaign I haven't played it yet. What I've read makes me think my roommate, a long-time AD&D 2nd Ed. DM who skipped 3.x/PF and 4, might enjoy this version. I haven't convinced him, though.

For myself, being a White box, 1e/2e DIE HARD, it was a leap to go to 3.5e So I can see the challenge. But for me, there are tooo many gimmie 4e elements still existing and the continued manipulations for earning experience points was just one of many reasons I shelved my 5e copies.

On a Gen Con presence: I can see both sides here. ........... but I doubt we'll see any increases in WotC/Hasbro presence outside of Seattle any time soon.

I agree

I don't want to get into a WoTC debate here—

Me either.
As far as Wizards goes, I too see no need to create a WOC "war", and only mean to provide information for those that may be unaware of the history of D&D and their relationship to it. I think Wizard's own webpage is very telling as well.......

A company who is most famous for their collectible card game Magic: The Gathering. They create games based on fantasy themes.

Interesting they choose to say they are "famous" for a cardgame over a game that has an immense following (in all its various editions) that has lasted more than FOUR times as long as their "famous card game".

.................

What I DON'T like about DnD 5e is the dearth of digital tools for the game. ........

True but that is WOC business model unfortunately. Create "new and improved core editions" (over and over). That and to regurgitate old works into the NIM with all the grace and precision of a sledgehammer. Hopefully bringing Ed Greenwood on board will help the creative juices, but sofar not seeing it. They seem content to continue the past with more regurgitation.

Also, while HL may be off-topic for this forum, there would still be great value in having 5e support in HL.

I agree, but like many things LWD is understaffed to adequately expand a new front, while struggling to keep pace in the ones they have. And WOC primary product isn't D&D, its a card game. As for Hazbro slice.... they, also unfortunately, are so large gobbling up any and all games, they have no sense of real urgency to make the effort for what to them is not Monopoly, Scrabble, or other benchmark Board game..... not realizing that D&D is neither a card game nor a boardgame.

So, I answer their surveys, hoping someone actually reads the comments, and understands that I have no interest in paying lots of money for an adventure I may only play once in a format that is inconvenient. I'd buy their core rules and monster manuals in paper even if they were available digitally since they are beautiful, high-quality books, and I enjoy paging through them, and having them on my book shelf. But I would also pay to have them digitally in RealmWorks and HeroLab.

Also agree, but the problem here is you (and I and many others) "have no interest in paying lots of money" so there is little motivation to feed your need. They hope (admittedly presumably) to take advantage of those new to the hobby, those not knowing how or what they might want or need.

When I went to GenCon in the 80s, it was because of DnD. GenCon without DnD saddens me, even though it is no longer in Lake Geneva (why even call it GenCon now) ........

LOL yea I have wondered this as well! Like you, I haven't been since Geneva.

..........I can certainly see the appeal of playing with only 3 books. I'm trying to get my present Pathfinder ruleset down to less than 20.

Well, its only "3" right now.... (insert cynicism here) Their own history would speak volumes otherwise....

WotC going with DungeonScape was a mistake........

While certainly a mistake, it was not the lead one. Not understanding the merchandise they purchased (ie TSR) and trying to slowly turn that product into another card game with the constant "upgrades".


Lastly to bring the thread back on track, MNB's heart is in the right place. Further support of RW might get Rob and company the support they desperately need, IMO, I just don't see WOC being that "supplier". Hope to happily be proven wrong...

 

[MNBlockHead]

1st thanks for the extras Parody... links
For myself, being a White box, 1e/2e DIE HARD, it was a leap to go to 3.5e So I can see the challenge. But for me, there are tooo many gimmie 4e elements still existing and the continued manipulations for earning experience points was just one of many reasons I shelved my 5e copies.

PM me if this thread is getting too off topic from RW, but I'm not sure what you mean by "continued manipulations for earning experience points." I like the various options for determining challenge ratings, creating encounters by experience points, and the non-combat and non-encounter options. Ultimately, as GM, it is up to me which approach I take, so long as I clearly communicate that to my players.

It has been a looong time since I played 1e and I no longer have any of the material. So, I have no idea how XP differed other than I remember it all being about combat (but that may have more to do with me playing in jr. high and high school than the options in the rules...I just can't remember).

 

[Aaron]

I agree, but like many things LWD is understaffed to adequately expand a new front, while struggling to keep pace in the ones they have. And WOC primary product isn't D&D, its a card game. As for Hazbro slice.... they, also unfortunately, are so large gobbling up any and all games, they have no sense of real urgency to make the effort for what to them is not Monopoly, Scrabble, or other benchmark Board game..... not realizing that D&D is neither a card game nor a boardgame.

Well, keep in mind that our staff could expand, if we were to add such a prestigious and (hopefully) profitable system as 5E. We have done a lot of the work to support the system already, when it was first coming out, but until we know we can put something on sale, we can't commit resources to finish it. That wouldn't make sense, as it would take attention away from currently supported systems we do sell.

 

[the_redbeard]

It has been a looong time since I played 1e and I no longer have any of the material. So, I have no idea how XP differed other than I remember it all being about combat (but that may have more to do with me playing in jr. high and high school than the options in the rules...I just can't remember).

Actually, back then the treasure rewards (1gp=1xp) were more important than the xp from monsters killed. Last time I saw someone calculate it, if you found all the treasure that the monsters had you gained 10 times as much experience from treasure. Wandering monsters didn't have treasure, so you tried to avoid those. For those playing by the book, it was a game of exploration and treasure hunting more than combat.

 

[MNBlockHead]

Actually, back then the treasure rewards (1gp=1xp) were more important than the xp from monsters killed. Last time I saw someone calculate it, if you found all the treasure that the monsters had you gained 10 times as much experience from treasure. Wandering monsters didn't have treasure, so you tried to avoid those. For those playing by the book, it was a game of exploration and treasure hunting more than combat.

Forgot about gp=xp. Must say, now, I don't like that idea. As a hopefully more mature DM, what I like about 5e is it really allows you to play the style you and your players like. If you like to focus on the story, you can give XP by milestone or just level everyone up before a session. In my current campaign I award for combat and for completing non-combat challenges and occasionally round out with xp awarded for hitting important milestones.

 

[Parody]

Interesting they choose to say they are "famous" for a cardgame over a game that has an immense following (in all its various editions) that has lasted more than FOUR times as long as their "famous card game".

That card game started an entire genre of game, one that keeps many game stores open. It's also what provided them the money to purchase the struggling company that created D&D. I'd say that's a much bigger achievement.

There's also tailoring to the audience, if the expected audience is more TCG than RPG.

Not understanding the merchandise they purchased (ie TSR) and trying to slowly turn that product into another card game with the constant "upgrades".

Honestly, it doesn't look like much has changed throughout (A)D&D's history, whether TSR or WotC. Every 5 years or so there's a new version or revision. In the meantime, there's plenty of supplements, whether focusing on adventures or sourcebooks. Paizo has the same thing with a pretty fixed schedule of one adventure plus one to two supplements every month and four hardcovers a year, along with all sorts of accessories.

 

[whump]

Thank you for the survey link. I'd like to see content for 5e delivered through RealmWorks... BUT... it's more important to me HOW the content is laid out than the means of its delivery.

I'm relatively new to this hobby - started just about when RW was released - and I haven't ever seen a well laid out book for a tabletop RPG. From any publisher. Ever. Rulebooks, adventures, anything. The books jump into things in illogical ways, layout is haphazard, important stuff is buried deep in unfindable paragraphs, and they're all so text-heavy! What happened to diagrams, summaries, plot flowcharts, consistent highlighting of key points? As a GM I want to see structure, I want to know where I'm going when a player throws me a curveball, and I need to see it quickly, not have to search through dense text to find it.

So really, if they can't deliver a well-laid out book... my expectation that they'd be able to deliver coherently laid out content in RW is low. The risk is high that the same problem would arise - key snippets buried inconsistently in random topics. I suppose the advantage of RW would be that you could rearrange those snippets yourself post-purchase, in a way that you can't with a book.

 

[meek75]

I haven't ever seen a well laid out book for a tabletop RPG. From any publisher. Ever.

LOL! I know, right! This is a common joke at our table. Using rule books is like working a puzzle. Just this past week we tried to look up a rule in the index (at least it had one, which is not always the case) and the entry said "see Actions". That actually took more space than listing the page number would have done?! For the most part I think it just illustrates that different people have different ways of organizing material and making connections. I'm sure the lay out made sense to the people that created it. The ability to organize things in way that makes sense to me is a powerful aspect of RW. The power of tags and filters is also huge (the filtering features of RW still need work though).

 

[kbs666]

There seems to be an aversion to making RPG rulebooks reference works. The emphasis seems to be on making them readable. Some publishers do make a reference version of their rules available online but it is far from common.

As to content in RW, I'm expecting that most publishers will use whatever format LWD provides with minor tweaks to fit the game involved.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

I'm relatively new to this hobby - started just about when RW was released - and I haven't ever seen a well laid out book for a tabletop RPG. From any publisher. Ever. Rulebooks, adventures, anything. The books jump into things in illogical ways, layout is haphazard, important stuff is buried deep in unfindable paragraphs, and they're all so text-heavy!

I would recommend looking at Paizo's Pathfinder Beginner Box set and or the Strategy Guide for getting into the core rules. These books where made to solve the exact issue you mention. They are put together with larger fonts, more pics, and easier to read sections. Similar ideas used for modern video games.

I have recently used the Strategy Guide with a newer player to get her to make a Rogue for our campaign. Made things allot easier as the book does a nice job of walking a person through the steps of making your first Pathfinder character.

My nephew is about the right age where I am hoping to use the Beginner Box to get him into gaming this Christmas. Got to start them young!