A word to the wise for the complainers

[Illydth]

Ok Illydth, first their Kickstarter obviously made them enough to get this rolling. Second you say that it was only up for a limited time, too limited in your opinion, but then you go ahead and say that they did nothing to limit the amount of people. You've already answered your own argument. How well they advertised the kickstarter, and the amount of time it was up for, was there way of limiting.

Sorry Zinquox: I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on this. While what you say is technically right, it's pretty much antithesis to what kick-starter exists for and why it's used in the business world. If the intent was not to obtain as much cash to finance a new venture as possible, there would be no such thing as stretch goals, multiple backing levels or all the other fun stuff kickstarters use to get people to pay $100 instead of $30. If their honest business plan not to be swamped by pre-access people was "limitation by obscurity" I would really question LWD as a company and the competence of the folks running the business...fortunately, I have absolutely no belief that what you are saying is in any way their business plan for the kickstarter, so my faith holds that LWD is a competent company with a good business plan and not a couple highschoolers in their mom's garage.

Second, your comment that LWD is "a company who's in business to make money," I have a feeling is more wrong then you can imagine. I highly doubt the people who started LWD said, "I know lets make money!" It was probably more something along the lines of, "Hey we could develop this product, and do an awesome job at it, we should do this!" Yes they make money off their product, but as this is something they do full time, they need to make some money off it, to you know, pay bills and other things.

*whistles* Ok, I like LWD too, but if you believe that their soul existence is because they like their product and it has nothing to do with paying bills, paying employees or making money, I have a bridge in Colorado to sell you.

Every company in the world exists for a single purpose: That is to make money. Otherwise LWD would be either a non-profit or an open source development effort. They make good products, they obviously care about them. Every company STARTS with an idea, but it continues to exist because of the money that idea produces. If you believe for a second that if the money dried up they'd still continue doing what they're doing, I think you're romanticizing quite a bit. Every professional developer cares about their products...they can't NOT and still produce something as great as LWD does. But LWD is a company, it DOES have employees, it pays taxes and it needs to produce a profit. I don't work for free...I can't afford to...and neither can the employees working for LWD.

If money didn't matter, they'd never have opened the Kickstarter in the first place.

My point is there are many of us who missed the kickstarter due to something other than our disinterest who would love nothing more than to provide LWD more of what it needs to continue functioning as a company: Money. Given the various delays in it's release schedule, there's absolutely no reason why more money would not be a good thing to infuse this project with at this point.

Third, yes I missed the kickstarter, and sure I would love to be able to buy in to help make this happen, but with so many people using it and reporting bugs, there really are only so many hours in a day, and too many cooks really can spoil the soup. I will wait. Is the world going to end because I had to wait a little longer? No? Good, then wait I shall.

If LWD is still in the "too many cooks spoiling the soup" position at this point in their development cycle, this project has more problems than anyone should be comfortable with.

When you open a beta effort you allow for a small number of testers for exactly the reason you allow: Small numbers of developers can't field fixes for hundreds of users. If LWD were still in the early development/testing phases of RW, your point is absolutely valid.

However as the development effort continues forward the number of bugs being found *should* be reduced and thus more testers do not produce more bugs...as each beta release hits the door more testers can and should be added to allow for more bugs to be found. If, what 3 - 4 Months? after opening early access they're still getting more bugs reported than the developers can keep up with...without adding new testers...this speaks to a larger problem.

Here's the flip side of what you've said: 600ish users is NOT enough beta testers to find all or even most of the bugs in a sufficiently complex piece of software. If they are NOT allowing for more testers, history and experience says many of the bugs will NOT be caught, meaning that at release the software will only be partially functional.

There's no better way to piss off your users than to deny them the ability to pay for beta access and then release beta quality software they have to pay for.

My only point in even posting was to suggest to the OP that there is another side to people complaining about the missed deadlines and not getting access to the software. Not everyone who wanted to had the opportunity to get in on early access. There are still many beta applicants sitting out there without access to the software. By the time you've blown your second or third self published "we'll release by here" deadline, people start asking what the problem is.

Suggesting "Well they simply can't handle adding more people, it would overwhelm them" does NOTHING to assuage people's fear that this product has gone off the rails. If that IS the case, if adding more testers at this point WOULD be overwhelming to the development staff, then the "Early 2014" release date published isn't even a pipe dream...unless they're going the route of releasing half done software and allowing the community to beta test it for them...

Which is all the complainers are asking for anyway...isn't it?

 

[Illydth]

So, a question for those who missed the kickstarter. What method of advertising the kickstarter would you definitely have seen? I know the kickstarter was posted on the wolflair home page, and the wolflair forums, and ENWorld. Just wondering, this info may be useful to the lonewolf folks in the future.

Woobyluv pretty much gives you the reason I missed the kickstarter as well...whatever advertising was done simply wasn't public enough or timely enough.

WolfLair has sent out "updates" every month on every product they've produced for a long time...yet at no point did that update EVER mention a Kickstarter for realm works since I THINK I've read most of them, or at least skimmed them.

The first recommendation I'd have would have been to have put "Kickstarter" as a special update from WolfLair or at worst have it a very visible part of their monthly news letter...which I don't believe it was.

Next, there are many of us who signed up to be beta testers but did not get in on the kickstarter. This blows my mind. Why wasn't a targeted e-mail sent out to the beta tester applicants? People who SPECIFICALLY said they were interested in this product should have been directly contacted identifying there was a way to get in on it.

The thing about the places you mention where the Kickstarter was posted: They're all public, but they're also all not normally accessed daily, weekly or even monthly. Unless I'm looking to buy an expansion for HL or have a problem with something I'm doing (unusual) I simply have little to come to this site for...and there are only so many hours in a day.

I tend to rely upon the Monthly newsletter to get most of my information about LWD / HL, which is why I am pretty sure the kickstarter was never published there...I do admit to not reading every word or even most of the newsletter at times, so I guess there's a possibility I would have missed it.

There is no method of advertising I *DEFINATELY* would have seen as many of us are so inundated by advertising that we actively avoid being advertised to. Still, a single blast or two to the HL client base, the Beta Applicant base or a continued monthly posting within the Monthly Newsletter would likely have gotten more attention than simply posting up on the forums.

--Illydth

 

[Mathias]

Illydth, here's the page on our website where all the past newsletters are collected: http://www.wolflair.com/news/newsletter/

 

[pyremius]

WolfLair has sent out "updates" every month on every product they've produced for a long time...yet at no point did that update EVER mention a Kickstarter for realm works since I THINK I've read most of them, or at least skimmed them.

The first recommendation I'd have would have been to have put "Kickstarter" as a special update from WolfLair or at worst have it a very visible part of their monthly news letter...which I don't believe it was.

Next, there are many of us who signed up to be beta testers but did not get in on the kickstarter. This blows my mind. Why wasn't a targeted e-mail sent out to the beta tester applicants? People who SPECIFICALLY said they were interested in this product should have been directly contacted identifying there was a way to get in on it.
--Illydth

Checking back through my archive, the 1/1/13, 1/31/13, and 2/20/13 newsletters all included a section on the Kickstarter, and there was a dedicated email sent out to subscribers 1/22/13.

Specifically notifying the beta applicants is an interesting idea - I never thought of doing something like that, but it's something worth remembering for future projects. That would have likely picked up a decent number of additional backers (and probably at a higher level).

 

[Aaron]

Checking back through my archive, the 1/1/13, 1/31/13, and 2/20/13 newsletters all included a section on the Kickstarter, and there was a dedicated email sent out to subscribers 1/22/13.

Specifically notifying the beta applicants is an interesting idea - I never thought of doing something like that, but it's something worth remembering for future projects. That would have likely picked up a decent number of additional backers (and probably at a higher level).

Just my personal opinion here, but that sort of thing might be seen as bad taste. "Hey beta applicants, I know some of you didn't get accepted, but we've got a kickstarter running now and one of the tiers includes beta access". It could raise some hackles, or suspicions that we'd kept the beta pool small in order to hit people up for money during the kickstarter.

 

[pyremius]

Thanks for the counterpoint - it's always good to remember to look past the immediate desire to see what the other possible outcomes are.

This is yet another reason I've always been content with Lone Wolf's plans (even though I really want my Android apps last year ). Every time they give us a glimpse of why they make the decisions they do - even if they're not the decisions I want - they show that they are looking deeply into the issues and making the best decisions they can to support making their products as good as possible.

 

[Aaron]

Again, to be clear. I wasn't party to any of the discussions on how to spread the word for realm works. I work on the Hero Lab side, so my comment above is just as much speculation as anyone else's.

 

[Rabulias]

I will say that I know the pain of missing Kickstarters (how did I miss Roll20's KS?), but not every KS can go on and on.

In fact, Kickstarter themselves say the following:

Projects on Kickstarter can last anywhere from 1 - 60 days. We've done some research, and found that projects lasting any longer are rarely successful.

We recommend that project deadlines are set at 30 days or less. Shorter durations have higher success rates, and will create a helpful sense of urgency around your project.

 

[Nikmal]

I have to chime in here as well on advertising for the Kickstarters. Most company's do NOT do well when it comes to advertising these. I have missed SO many of them it is almost ludicrous to say the least that I would have backed had I known about them while they were happening. Lone Wolf was NOT one of these company's that had poor advertising for theirs.

They advertised on their own pages as well as many many other public gamer forums as well as other game company's web sites too. Not only that but they sent out a news letter specifically addressing the Kickstarter to all the Lone Wolf site subscribers. Of which most of whom would have been interested in this software.

While some of the sites that were mentioned enough might not have been checked by some, one simply can not blame Lone Wolf for that because you do not go them as often as others do. Short of advertising on TV and hoping the word spread by word of mouth better then it originally had is not Lone Wolf's blame. It is tough missing it and looking forward to RW and not being able to get in to Early access and or beta but Lone Wolf is working hard to get it out. I am not saying do not be upset or peeved that you do not have access... but do not blame LWD for not getting the kickstarter when the short of it is that LWD short of advertising all over the internet with paid for advertising and developing banner ads for 100's if not 1000's of web sites would be defeating the purpose of the kickstarter to begin with and that is getting a push to add another potential feature, a major feature, to RW.

This is not one of the kickstarters I missed and for once I am on the inside looking out and I am happy... but the many I missed makes me chagrined for not having been able to back up. So trust me you are not the only one that feels bad having missed even one kickstater.

 

[Chemlak]

I think Nikmal has said things very well, and I know for certain that I didn't hear about the Kickstarter from any other websites - I've been watching RW ever since I first heard about it (a couple of years ago), and applied for the beta as soon as I could. I heard about the KS from the newsletter, and spent days agonising over my budget for backing it.

As soon as I figured out how much I could afford, I backed it, creating a KS account just to do so.

I have vastly more sympathy for people who weren't even roleplayers when the KS was active than those who were and didn't pay attention. Especially those who were already LWD customers and missed the newsletters.

I do sympathise with the desire to get the software. And I fully sympathise with the release delays causing frustration. But I just can't find it in myself to sympathise with people who missed the boat on getting early access.

 

[zarlor]

I would have to agree that getting the word out on a Kickstarter campaign is extremely tough. There are a lot of KS projects all vying for attention for only 30 days. That's barely enough time to really get the word out and it's especially true when we're talking about a smaller company like LoneWolf. The vast majority of KS buzz doesn't come from advertising, but from the community getting the word out far and wide, usually to all of those little niches of various forums, on smaller reddit communities, etc. For a company like LoneWolf that only has a newsletter come out once a month that makes it even less likely that they'll get the word out in time, let alone that their target audience with get it and be able to react by getting into the Kickstarter in that relatively tiny 30-day window.

So I would very strongly suggest that it's rather ridiculous to blame LoneWolf for not advertising the KS well enough. If anything it's awesome that they not only made but exceeded their goal. So, so many Kickstarter projects don't even do that, even ones that try harder to change their tactics, get the word out well in advance and try multiple times to get a project off the ground. So blaming LoneWolf for not advertising enough seems odd to me in the context of a successful Kickstarter.

I would also add that the KS campaign wasn't actually for RealmWorks itself, they were already doing that, it was for adding the "cloud" functionality to RealmWorks. So in that sense the Beta team for RealmWorks itself was already set previously. Adding more to the team was essentially only even possibly because the KS funds allowed for more personnel to be hired, it seems to me, who could then support not only the additional functionality being added to RelamWorks, but also to handle the extra work required by expanding the Beta team.

Finally, I would also add that when talking about the Kickstarter we have to remember that there were a limited number of slots (50), that weren't cheap ($500), for buying into the beta team and only one of those slots went untaken by the end of the Kickstarter. All of the rest of the "early access" functionality was also not cheap ($250 for that privilege) and was originally intended for only a 2 month time period before final release. So, sure, some of the folks here who say they would have gotten into the KS may well have done so if they had known, but how many of those would have paid at the $250 or $500 level with the idea, at the time, that such early access would have been for a lot less longer (although for good reason, IMHO) than it has turned out to be? Most folks at release will be paying a LOT less for an actually polished product. So I'm not so sure that's its all that useful to run too many "what if" scenarios on if other folks had heard about the Kickstarter or not.

 

[EightBitz]

What Zarlor said. I knew about the Kick starter, but I have other financial obligations. I could not afford to pay for software based on the promise of existence. I've seen too many software projects either fail or suffer delay after delay. I didn't recall that the early access tier was at $250. I definitely would not have been able to justify that cost. Not everybody here is as well off as some appear to be. ("We supported early access, then we piled on a bunch more money to compensate for those who backed out.")

I'm happy that so many of you can afford to do that. Not all of us can. And again, as Zarlor says, the expectation given was that those of us who opted out would only have to wait two months more.

It's been a bit more than that, yes?

 

[enrious]

What Zarlor said. I knew about the Kick starter, but I have other financial obligations. I could not afford to pay for software based on the promise of existence. I've seen too many software projects either fail or suffer delay after delay. I didn't recall that the early access tier was at $250. I definitely would not have been able to justify that cost. Not everybody here is as well off as some appear to be. ("We supported early access, then we piled on a bunch more money to compensate for those who backed out.")

I'm happy that so many of you can afford to do that. Not all of us can. And again, as Zarlor says, the expectation given was that those of us who opted out would only have to wait two months more.

It's been a bit more than that, yes?

Early access was at the $80 level, super-duper early access (aka Beta) was at $500. The $250 level is basically the same as the $80 level, but with lifetime cloud access.

Those who were in Beta got access fairly quickly after the KS ended (week or two?); those who got in for the early access got in around...June? July?

You were either unable or unwilling to pledge for the $80 level. Believe me, I get it as when the KS ended, I hadn't pledged for that much either. I wanted in on Realm Works as I'd seen enough of it in the screen shots, vids, and reports from some people who were using plus my experience with the company's other programs.

And yet I couldn't afford to pledge the $80, so I pledged less. Later, my circumstances improved at a time when LW offered full refunds to folks, so I increased my pledge. The fact that so many of us were motivated for whatever reason more than offset those who asked for refunds is a happy effect, but I suspect I wasn't the only one who'd regretted pledging at a lower level - in fact, I know I wasn't. Were I you, I'd walk back some of your comments as to the motivations of others as frankly you can't possibly know them and it comes off as petulant.

But again, I get that you evaluated things at the time and decided that you couldn't justify it - and I empathize. I think it's certainly fair to point out that part of your decision making was the idea that you'd only be waiting 2 months before the software came out, which caused you not to contribute the $80+ required for the early access.

However, there were people who actually risked their money and then didn't see anything for over 4 months and who still can't fully use the software without risk of starting over - and thus wasting a lot of time spent entering data.

There are people who did pledge an amount lower than $80 on the expectation that the software would have been out months ago.

And most of the people who pledged will qualify for stretch rewards that likely won't be out for again several months after RW goes live, what about them?

I empathize with the people who would liked to have participated in the KS but didn't for whatever reason, just as I do those who actually forked over money in the KS and who still don't have a released product.

This isn't a case where you win by being the most wretched - we all have our own woes when it comes to RW.

And frankly, none of it matters in the end. If you pledged and are unhappy, LW has in the past offered full refunds. If you didn't pledge and are unhappy, you still have your money.

The earth still spins.

 

[zarlor]

EightBitz,

Maybe you had the expectation that you would only have to wait two more months (and enrious is right about the $80 thing, I just read it wrong when I checked the KS sorry) but you also mention all the software projects you seen that never came to fruition at all. So in that sense you're still safe if for some completely unforeseeable reason at this point Realm Works isn't released, natch? Yet the same applies to most software I've ever seen where it all runs way over expected release dates. LoneWolf doesn't seem to release whole new pieces of software too often, let alone something on this scale, so it doesn't surprise me in the least that they made the mistake of setting expectations that proved to be ones they couldn't meet.

You, in particular, have given them so much heat for it I doubt they'll ever even come close to giving a release date for anything ever again. So you've taught them the lesson of how to get burned by trying to be forthcoming like that and the price of failing to meet a deadline. You should feel proud. Are we done with the blame game and can we just move on now?

 

[EightBitz]

You, in particular, have given them so much heat for it I doubt they'll ever even come close to giving a release date for anything ever again. So you've taught them the lesson of how to get burned by trying to be forthcoming like that and the price of failing to meet a deadline. You should feel proud. Are we done with the blame game and can we just move on now?

If I see an active topic, I'll feel free to chime in or not as I please.

As far as the blame game goes, I've been done for a while, but this thread remains active, and I've not commented in it until today. There are 53 comments here (54 now), only one of which is mine (2 now).

If this thread weren't still active, I wouldn't have commented at all. I think you need to revisit your evaluation of which forum members haven't moved on.

 

[EightBitz]

Were I you, I'd walk back some of your comments as to the motivations of others as frankly you can't possibly know them and it comes off as petulant.

See, here's the thing about the internet. It's so easy for things to be read in a different context or with a different intent than they were written. So, yeah, if I had the opportunity do it all over again, I'd vent my frustrations in a more appropriate way. But that's the benefit of hindsight, right?

I don't know which specific comments you're referring to. I don't remember speaking to anyone's motivations. But I don't think it's worth rehashing everything to determine what I did or didn't say and what I did or didn't mean, as things might just blow up again, and that was never my intention. If I did do as you say I did, then you're right that I can't know other people's motivations, and I'd probably want to walk those comments back, but again, I don't think it's worth rehashing the specifics.

I do appreciate the fact that your comment was generally worded in a rather more respectful tone than others might have used to say the same things.

 

[zarlor]

If I see an active topic, I'll feel free to chime in or not as I please.

As far as the blame game goes, I've been done for a while, but this thread remains active, and I've not commented in it until today. There are 53 comments here (54 now), only one of which is mine (2 now).

If this thread weren't still active, I wouldn't have commented at all. I think you need to revisit your evaluation of which forum members haven't moved on.

You're right, I should have made the comment more generalized than as a direct response to you, although it does say something that your name kind of sticks in my mind (and it was my post you decided to jump back in with, so it turned it into our quoting each other and making it seem more like specific responses.) So please accept that my intention here should not have been to single out EightBitz, but rather applies to the many other folks who seem to want to continue complaining about what Lone Wolf did or didn't do about Realm Works so far.

I get the frustration, I really do, and I've had my share of it for various reasons (there is no point in complaining that I've had the software while others have not as those of us doing beta testing have had our frustrations as well of dealing with a BETA product, although at least we understood and accepted that going in). At this point I think we've now seen what the fruits of those labors have wrought... LWD will simply no longer try to give us more clear-cut ideas on timetables, and as such they may appear to be less forthcoming from now on. This will save them from further embarrassment should they be unable to meet such timetables, but it also means they will likely be even more shy and a bit less forthcoming in general in the future.

The entire product was not crowd-funded like Star Citizen (only the "cloud" portion of it) so they also have no particular obligation to us to put it all on the line to keep us informed on a weekly basis. Personally I'd LOVE to see the inner workings like RSI does on a weekly basis with Star Citizen, but a company would have to grow an almost ridiculously thick skin, and have a lot of experience with the kinds of technology and deadlines we are looking at here to do it (and even RSI has had to slip deadlines.) There is a reason that kind of forthrightness is almost non-existent in the industry so I hope you folks enjoyed it while it lasted here. I'd be surprised (though happily so if they did) to see it again anytime soon.

 

[EightBitz]

You're right, I should have made the comment more generalized than as a direct response to you, although it does say something that your name kind of sticks in my mind (and it was my post you decided to jump back in with, so it turned it into our quoting each other and making it seem more like specific responses.) So please accept that my intention here should not have been to single out EightBitz, but rather applies to the many other folks who seem to want to continue complaining about what Lone Wolf did or didn't do about Realm Works so far.

Thank you.

 

[enrious]

See, here's the thing about the internet. It's so easy for things to be read in a different context or with a different intent than they were written. So, yeah, if I had the opportunity do it all over again, I'd vent my frustrations in a more appropriate way. But that's the benefit of hindsight, right?

I don't know which specific comments you're referring to. I don't remember speaking to anyone's motivations. But I don't think it's worth rehashing everything to determine what I did or didn't say and what I did or didn't mean, as things might just blow up again, and that was never my intention. If I did do as you say I did, then you're right that I can't know other people's motivations, and I'd probably want to walk those comments back, but again, I don't think it's worth rehashing the specifics.

I do appreciate the fact that your comment was generally worded in a rather more respectful tone than others might have used to say the same things.

I was referring to the "piled on" bit, but y'know what? You're right. None of this is worth rehashing (and I'd argue it probably wasn't worth hashing in the first place).

We all have experiences with Realm Works that have failed to meet our expectations, for whatever reason. And I doubt LW is happy about that and working hard to meet those expectations.

At the end of the day, we should all work more to build our community bridges, not burn them.

After all, when folks get the software for the first time, those who've been using it will readily help and advise - it's how the RW community is. And the vets are going to learn a lot of new tip and tricks and see a lot of cool new ways the newcomers are going to use the software.

Sure beats beating each other (or at this point LW) over the head. That just results in everyone having a headache.

 

[EightBitz]

I was referring to the "piled on" bit, but y'know what? You're right. None of this is worth rehashing (and I'd argue it probably wasn't worth hashing in the first place).

I don't understand how the "piled on" bit refers to motivations. It refers to an action. And it refers to an action that I've read other people say themselves that they did, not an action that I'm assuming or guessing they did.

As for the rest, I made one comment people didn't like. When I was asked to check myself, I did and refrained from further comment . . . until others kept coming down one me. I saw that as unfair, so I reacted.

I'm not saying I didn't do anything wrong. I'm just saying it was flying in both directions.

Anyway, that's my last comment on the matter. I didn't come here intending to be a jerk, and I ultimately regret that it came off that way. I don't want to repeat the same mistake, so I'll stop with this comment.