• Please note: In an effort to ensure that all of our users feel welcome on our forums, we’ve updated our forum rules. You can review the updated rules here: http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=5528.

    If a fellow Community member is not following the forum rules, please report the post by clicking the Report button (the red yield sign on the left) located on every post. This will notify the moderators directly. If you have any questions about these new rules, please contact support@wolflair.com.

    - The Lone Wolf Development Team

Realm Works Pre-Release Update

Status
Not open for further replies.
Everybody, please take a deep breath. :)

At this point, I'm even more exhausted than earlier today, but I need to step in and clarify something I failed to do earlier. I'm perfectly fine with those of you that are frustrated venting some of that frustration here. Heck, I'm probably just as frustrated - possibly more - with our inability to get this thing where it needs to be. You've been waiting months, while I've been working to get this product ready for years.

What I took exception to is the term "vaporware". Hearing that term used in reference to Realm Works was like being stabbed in the gut - incredibly painful. On the one hand, I know the product is very close to being released, so the term is woefully inaccurate. On the other hand, my own frustrations with our inability to deliver thus far have me at times asking myself whether we'll ever get this thing out the door. So that term really stung. And it hurt more because it came from Eightbitz, who on Thursday said (I'm paraphrasing) he was frustrated but would understand if we didn't make the release (exact quote can be found here).

For those of you who have been defending us, thank you for your support. The sentiments are greatly appreciated and help keep us pushing through to the end. However, the frustration for some of these folks is very real - and merited (to be brutally honest). I know the frustration is very real for me, so I can even empathize to some degree.

So....

For those of you who wish to vent your frustration, please do so. Just be sure that you do so in a grounded manner that avoids overstatement of the facts.

And for those who want to chime in saying that Realm Works is worth the wait, please realize that those comments simply compound the frustration of those who don't have it in their hands yet. So be respectful of that fact as well.

For me, bringing Realm Works to fruition has been like running the Iron Man Triathlon. It's been brutal. After swimming 2+ miles and biking another 100+ miles, there was still a full marathon left to go. I'm now within a mile of the finish line, but the legs have gone wobbly and the brain has gone foggy. It's a gut-check from here, but the thing I want more than anything else is to cross that finish line.

As I indicated earlier, I will circle back and provide some insights into our choice to not do a pre-release when I have a clearer head. Right now, I need to unwind for a few hours and decompress a little before I crack. Then I'll go back to running the marathon.

In the mean time, everyone is welcome to resume sharing their thoughts and opinions. Just be respectful of each other and strive for a little mutual understanding. :)
 
rob said:
Everybody, please take a deep breath. :)

At this point, I'm even more exhausted than earlier today, but I need to step in and clarify something I failed to do earlier. I'm perfectly fine with those of you that are frustrated venting some of that frustration here. Heck, I'm probably just as frustrated - possibly more - with our inability to get this thing where it needs to be. You've been waiting months, while I've been working to get this product ready for years.

What I took exception to is the term "vaporware". Hearing that term used in reference to Realm Works was like being stabbed in the gut - incredibly painful. On the one hand, I know the product is very close to being released, so the term is woefully inaccurate. On the other hand, my own frustrations with our inability to deliver thus far have me at times asking myself whether we'll ever get this thing out the door. So that term really stung. And it hurt more because it came from Eightbitz, who on Thursday said (I'm paraphrasing) he was frustrated but would understand if we didn't make the release (exact quote can be found here).

For those of you who have been defending us, thank you for your support. The sentiments are greatly appreciated and help keep us pushing through to the end. However, the frustration for some of these folks is very real - and merited (to be brutally honest). I know the frustration is very real for me, so I can even empathize to some degree.

So....

For those of you who wish to vent your frustration, please do so. Just be sure that you do so in a grounded manner that avoids overstatement of the facts.

And for those who want to chime in saying that Realm Works is worth the wait, please realize that those comments simply compound the frustration of those who don't have it in their hands yet. So be respectful of that fact as well.

For me, bringing Realm Works to fruition has been like running the Iron Man Triathlon. It's been brutal. After swimming 2+ miles and biking another 100+ miles, there was still a full marathon left to go. I'm now within a mile of the finish line, but the legs have gone wobbly and the brain has gone foggy. It's a gut-check from here, but the thing I want more than anything else is to cross that finish line.

As I indicated earlier, I will circle back and provide some insights into our choice to not do a pre-release when I have a clearer head. Right now, I need to unwind for a few hours and decompress a little before I crack. Then I'll go back to running the marathon.

In the mean time, everyone is welcome to resume sharing their thoughts and opinions. Just be respectful of each other and strive for a little mutual understanding. :)
Click to expand...

I said I was frustrated by the delays (which is still true), and I said I appreciate your participation in these forums (which is still true). I said it was my sincerest wish that you take the holidays off and spend time with your families (which is still true).

It may surprise some folk here that I understand the difference between a person and a product. I can express my frustrations about the delays of a product release, but still respect the person working on it. This is why I backed off when you chided me. This is why I held my tongue, so to speak, when others made the comments they did.

And even now, you offer that my (and others') frustrations are merited. But that frustration still does exist. It exists because since August (for me, personally), we've been hearing that RW is close to release. When you say "close to release" for five months, the phrase becomes meaningless. We have no idea what our expectations should be now. Even if you give us another date, what meaning would that have now?
 
I must be just that damn cool to have vaporware installed on my computer as I type this. Damn cool vaporware at that, if not 100% ready for prerelease. Merry Christmas, Lone Wolf... take a damn break and have some fun. ;)
 
Last edited:
Goreshade said:
*Snip*

What I find disturbing, is the lack of professional conduct after so many let downs to a current or potential customer, and the usual forum "Heroes" and their sickeningly syrupy support.

*Snip*

BTW, if you have the app due to KS or beta or whatever your opinion is at best useless fanboyism, at worst base hypocrisy. After all, you don't have to wait right?
Bottom line, the only thing worse on a forum than a Troll is a super positive sycophantic Fanboy.

So that said, let the Fanboys gird themselves for the battle (or time of day) I won't give them, and may their zealous clicking of the quote button and scathing rebuttals be full of verve and fury. Lame-ers.

Happy holidays LWD. Negativity in type, doesn't not necessarily mean hatred and rage.
Click to expand...

I'm not a fanboy nor do I purport to be a "Hero" and I'm only defending the software because I've worked with it since the second round of beta testing.

The current state of Realmworks is vastly different from that iteration whilst impressive, however, the "Missing Features" still warrant the delay.

Mead said:
I must be just that damn cool to have vaporware installed on my computer as I type this. Damn cool vaporware at that, if not 100% ready for prerelease. Merry Christmas, Lone Wolf... take a damn break and have some fun. ;)
Click to expand...

I've got some vapourware on my PS3, it's Battlefield 4. One missing feature in this one is the inability to retain a saved game ;P

Seriously though everyone enjoy the Christmas holiday and have a happy new year, even with all the warranted frustrations.
 
bodrin said:
I'm not a fanboy nor do I purport to be a "Hero" and I'm only defending the software because I've worked with it since the second round of beta testing.

The current state of Realmworks is vastly different from that iteration whilst impressive, however, the "Missing Features" still warrant the delay.



I've got some vapourware on my PS3, it's Battlefield 4. One missing feature in this one is the inability to retain a saved game ;P

Seriously though everyone enjoy the Christmas holiday and have a happy new year, even with all the warranted frustrations.
Click to expand...

Bodrin,

As a user (not a developer), can you explain what the missing features are and why they warrant the delay? Can you explain why, if the software is as good and as use able as everyone keeps saying, the delay is still warranted? Because that's what's confusing us.

Also, in response to other comments, vaporware is software that hasn't been publicly released, regardless of whether or not it exists. I don't have the definition wrong. I invite Rob to prove me wrong anytime he pleases. If, and only if, that happens, you'll all be justified in pointing and laughing at me as LWD takes my money. But it has to be released first.
 
"Vaporware - Vaporware is a term in the computer industry that describes a product, typically computer hardware or software, that is announced to the general public but is never actually released nor officially cancelled. Vaporware is also a term sometimes used to describe events that are announced or predicted, never officially cancelled, but never intended to happen. The term also generally applies to a product that is announced months or years before its release, and for which public development details are lacking."

The product is definitely not cancelled and is still planned for release, and is still intended to happen. The simple fact that there are folks here who actually have the product in their hands as a beta and/or pre-release version is basic proof of that. Thus my initial statement stands and I believe that you do have the definition wrong. It is simply not vaporware.

I'm not going to tell you the delays should make you happy or that frustration about them isn't warranted (and I didn't say such things in my first post here about that either.) I could go on about the great things in it that those of us who are beta or pre-release folks have seen and used, but I don't see much point. I think it's a good product that still has a few flaws (none of which I will go into as I'm under an NDA and thus it's not my place to discuss). Those flaws are generally very few, though, so I think LWD is getting pretty close and I expect to purchase a copy or two as gifts for GM friends who I think will enjoy it and get a lot of good use out of it.

So as far as I'm concerned, is it vaporware? No.

Does LWD deserve some criticism for not making their own self-imposed deadlines? Yes. Just as is true for any company, or team within a company.

Are those delays acceptable? Well, that depends on several factors and I think Rob has outlined them decently well, IMHO, and that their team had some expectations that, in hindsight, may have been a bit unrealistic as the unforseen hurdles they've had to overcome were mightier than they first looked. It is only from failure that we learn. Have none of you failed to meet a deadline or set expectations that in your professional lives you were unable to meet? If you have always met them then I might suggest whoever set those was experienced enough to be overly-generous in providing leeway (setting the bar low, so to speak). For the rest of us these kinds of things are simply the cost of doing business.

So I say criticize away, but at least do so with some better understanding of the terms used. RW simply isn't vaporware.
 
EightBitz said:
Bodrin,

As a user (not a developer), can you explain what the missing features are and why they warrant the delay? Can you explain why, if the software is as good and as use able as everyone keeps saying, the delay is still warranted? Because that's what's confusing us.

Also, in response to other comments, vaporware is software that hasn't been publicly released, regardless of whether or not it exists. I don't have the definition wrong. I invite Rob to prove me wrong anytime he pleases. If, and only if, that happens, you'll all be justified in pointing and laughing at me as LWD takes my money. But it has to be released first.
Click to expand...

EightBitz.
There are still people that are having major crashes to the software and even to their systems because of it. From what I have seen there are memory leaks. Some people that have been in BETA and or in the Early Buy in Beta release people that have not been able to access the software at all and has recently been fixed for them. I am talking months here without being able to use Realmworks at all. Some people are having problems Syncing with the cloud with out crashing completely.

It is not all a bed of Roses and it is tough for Lone Wolf to see all of this happening I am sure. I know I see them working at all hours and now even on the Holidays to get this out and see the frustration and understandably so of not getting it in their hands when the release is so close and yet so far away. It is a tough pill to swallow. But on the same hand it is going to be released and knowing the problems that have been happening in one form or other it could be worse if they released it now.

Imagine if you will: If you had paid money for a supposedly finished product but you are unable to use it at all... would you be more or less upset with it not being released or with it being released and not able to use it due to lack of fixed issues? Or even being able to use the software because you can't create a realm or if you do create a realm and get alot of work done only to have it crash and loose it all?

So in seeing both sides I understand where you are coming from and Lone Wolf. There is no easy answer to how this should be handled other then how they have been and hopefully no other crashes will happen with the BETA team and finally get a stable and good release going on to all of us.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!!
 
In Lone Wolfs defense... there has been major games that have gone beyond a year of their release dates and some even longer then that before they actually released their product. :)

Lets all try and be patient :)
 
In RW's defense, the cost of releasing a less than acceptable product is more than the cost of the criticism of being late.

For example: You get the product (we will call it 1.0), you play around with the product and like it so you spend a few hours inputting data, then a few more hours as you start to learn easier and better ways of doing things.

Then the unthinkable happens, all the data is 'gone', inaccessible, the program will not start, or any other issues that can crop up. You need this data for your game in 2 hours. Your in a panic as you have spent hours getting everything ready. The game time starts and you still don't have your data in the program.

Are you going to continue to use this software even after they 'fixed' the issues? The bad taste of the first impression use will stay with you for a long while. This is the hidden, intangible costs that business have to review and take into consideration.

Just throwing out numbers (which may or may not have any basis of reality). Lets say there are 300 people who are beta and early access subscribers. Each new release, 10% have an issue that needs to be addressed and each issue takes 5 minutes to address on a personal level (E-mail, asking for database to be mailed, ect), this means 2.5 hours of support. This 2.5 hours is taking away from 'programming' or fixing known errors but is necessary. Now lets move this up to 3,000 people, this becomes 25 hours and this is just for 3,000 people. 9,000 becomes 75 man hours. At 75 man hours, that is two full time positions just to manage 5 minute supports. The alternative is to hold off until you have an acceptable percentage of error (1% reduces the man hours to 7.5 hours).

Just my nickel thought (use to be 2 cents, but inflation hit, besides, no one wants penny's any more)
 
Nikmal said:
EightBitz.
There are still people that are having major crashes to the software and even to their systems because of it. From what I have seen there are memory leaks. Some people that have been in BETA and or in the Early Buy in Beta release people that have not been able to access the software at all and has recently been fixed for them. I am talking months here without being able to use Realmworks at all. Some people are having problems Syncing with the cloud with out crashing completely.

It is not all a bed of Roses and it is tough for Lone Wolf to see all of this happening I am sure. I know I see them working at all hours and now even on the Holidays to get this out and see the frustration and understandably so of not getting it in their hands when the release is so close and yet so far away. It is a tough pill to swallow. But on the same hand it is going to be released and knowing the problems that have been happening in one form or other it could be worse if they released it now.

Imagine if you will: If you had paid money for a supposedly finished product but you are unable to use it at all... would you be more or less upset with it not being released or with it being released and not able to use it due to lack of fixed issues? Or even being able to use the software because you can't create a realm or if you do create a realm and get alot of work done only to have it crash and loose it all?

So in seeing both sides I understand where you are coming from and Lone Wolf. There is no easy answer to how this should be handled other then how they have been and hopefully no other crashes will happen with the BETA team and finally get a stable and good release going on to all of us.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!!
Click to expand...

First, thank you for an even-tempered reply.

A couple of things . . .

We've been told since August that it's close to release. They wanted to get it out for GenCon, then they wanted to get it out in October, then for Christmas. And each time, it's been "We're close to release." In a previous update, we were led to believe that the main hurdle was Cloud Syncing, and once that was sorted out, everything would be hunky dory. Now cloud syncing is, presumably, sorted out (though that impression may turn out to be inaccurate), and now it's "Wait, there are other major bugs we have to sort out. It wasn't just cloud syncing."

OK, fine. How many more months will take to sort out these major system crashes?

I would rather pay for a buggy version now, as long as I understand that it's buggy, than have no idea how much longer I have to wait for a fixed version. Telling me I should have backed the Kickstarter is pointless given that we're five months passed the estimated release on the Kickstarter, and have missed at least three projected release dates since then.
 
Admins, feel free to delete this, i wont take offense.

Complaining about release dates is sorta dumb (and i have in the past on this forum, till i thought about this). Most average Programs released will give a few screen shots, and not give a release date till its in Beta... The only reason LWD Did from the beginning was cause they kicked started it. If you went by average big company Releases, You would have heard about the program in august at GenCon, Maybe shown a demonstration. It was just recently went in to beta, which means it would just recently have been announced. The Fact that we have gotten to follow it through this long has been a Joy i have loved.

So going off that, its only a week or 2 behind. If you think of it that way, its not to bad at all.

Thank you to the LWD Team, i hope your having a Great Holiday. Can't wait to hear about how things are going in the new year.

-- Jon
 
EightBitz said:
Bodrin,

As a user (not a developer), can you explain what the missing features are and why they warrant the delay? Can you explain why, if the software is as good and as use able as everyone keeps saying, the delay is still warranted? Because that's what's confusing us.
Click to expand...

Certainly. But not the missing features! NDA!

I've entered three amounts of data for testing.

The first is a "Realm" for my current Adventure Path campaign.
The second is "Realm" that only required illustrations and a map.
The third is a smaller copy of my current Adventure Path campaign. Due to a corrupted back up.

During entry of all the 3 datasets I've had to contend with, BSOD, intermittent data loss / corruption, catastrophic crashing, the inability to launch the program due to a catastrophic crash. Unresponsive maps, unresponsive crash reporting, server errors, memory leaks, disappearing cursors etc. etc. etc.

These have all happened whilst using the Realmworks program pre game, post game and in game. They have all been reported via bug reports, email and pm. Current states of the databases have been analysed restored and reworked separately by LW and myself.

Now I am still coloured impressed with the program despite these bugs but it still isn't ready for release. Because of other bugs that have been reported.

Even when I had 6 players sat around my game table watching a blank monitor that had only moments before displayed a "Dungeon" map and pertinent details the game still continued, however I was without my tactical console as Hero Lab had also crashed due to the Realmworks crash.

Now if I'd have not had my campaign notes on paper copies the game would have stopped whilst I waited for the laptop to reboot, Realmworks to restart, if it hadn't corrupted the Database, and Hero Lab to reboot.
Neither of the two programs or the laptop start quickly enough to maintain the impetus of the game session!
 
bodrin said:
Certainly. But not the missing features! NDA!

I've entered three amounts of data for testing.

The first is a "Realm" for my current Adventure Path campaign.
The second is "Realm" that only required illustrations and a map.
The third is a smaller copy of my current Adventure Path campaign. Due to a corrupted back up.

During entry of all the 3 datasets I've had to contend with, BSOD, intermittent data loss / corruption, catastrophic crashing, the inability to launch the program due to a catastrophic crash. Unresponsive maps, unresponsive crash reporting, server errors, memory leaks, disappearing cursors etc. etc. etc.

These have all happened whilst using the Realmworks program pre game, post game and in game. They have all been reported via bug reports, email and pm. Current states of the databases have been analysed restored and reworked separately by LW and myself.

Now I am still coloured impressed with the program despite these bugs but it still isn't ready for release. Because of other bugs that have been reported.

Even when I had 6 players sat around my game table watching a blank monitor that had only moments before displayed a "Dungeon" map and pertinent details the game still continued, however I was without my tactical console as Hero Lab had also crashed due to the Realmworks crash.

Now if I'd have not had my campaign notes on paper copies the game would have stopped whilst I waited for the laptop to reboot, Realmworks to restart, if it hadn't corrupted the Database, and Hero Lab to reboot.
Neither of the two programs or the laptop start quickly enough to maintain the impetus of the game session!
Click to expand...

Thank you for the explanation.

So, then how about this? If the problems are that extensive, stop saying it's close to release. Because it doesn't sound like it is close to release. My frustration is not only with the delays. It's also with the missed release dates compounding the uncertainty that any future release dates will be reliable.

So just be more honest and say, "We still have some major challenges ahead, and it's definitely going to be a while before it's released. We honestly have no idea when that will be until we fix these major flaws."

Why is that so difficult?
 
bodrin said:
Certainly. But not the missing features! NDA!

I've entered three amounts of data for testing.

The first is a "Realm" for my current Adventure Path campaign.
The second is "Realm" that only required illustrations and a map.
The third is a smaller copy of my current Adventure Path campaign. Due to a corrupted back up.

During entry of all the 3 datasets I've had to contend with, BSOD, intermittent data loss / corruption, catastrophic crashing, the inability to launch the program due to a catastrophic crash. Unresponsive maps, unresponsive crash reporting, server errors, memory leaks, disappearing cursors etc. etc. etc.

These have all happened whilst using the Realmworks program pre game, post game and in game. They have all been reported via bug reports, email and pm. Current states of the databases have been analysed restored and reworked separately by LW and myself.

Now I am still coloured impressed with the program despite these bugs but it still isn't ready for release. Because of other bugs that have been reported.

Even when I had 6 players sat around my game table watching a blank monitor that had only moments before displayed a "Dungeon" map and pertinent details the game still continued, however I was without my tactical console as Hero Lab had also crashed due to the Realmworks crash.

Now if I'd have not had my campaign notes on paper copies the game would have stopped whilst I waited for the laptop to reboot, Realmworks to restart, if it hadn't corrupted the Database, and Hero Lab to reboot.
Neither of the two programs or the laptop start quickly enough to maintain the impetus of the game session!
Click to expand...

Bodrin,

One more question. Are you happy to have the software, or would rather you were still waiting for its public release?
 
EightBitz said:
Bodrin,

One more question. Are you happy to have the software, or would rather you were still waiting for its public release?
Click to expand...

I'm still waiting for its public release, unless I delete, reinstall and start entering my data all over again, I can't manage the 3 separate instances, which I'd like to do.

I'm still using the beta version, but only sporadically entering data after my game sessions have run, Hero Lab takes precedence at the game table for combat sessions, Realmworks provides a visual reminder to the players but isn't used at its fullest!
 
EightBitz said:
Bodrin,

One more question. Are you happy to have the software, or would rather you were still waiting for its public release?
Click to expand...
It is a double edged sword. having the software is a boon and a bane in a way. We have it and it is nice to have granted.. but on the same token when one puts a lot of work in to entering the date for it to become corrupt is frustrating too. I gratefully have not had that problem but a friend of mine that is also part of the BETA due to the KS, has had that issue and he had more data entered then I do and did.

It is close to being finished though... as close as it has been. they are releasing updates to get us to test them quite a bit this week. But people are still reporting some crashes and I think that is what it putting them behind.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top