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Integrated SRD and early access (sorta) questions.

J

Jaynay27

Well-known member
So - With early access around the corner and many of us planning campaign input, I had a few questions about PFSRD data/input.

I know Realm Works is system agnostic and this post wont affect anyone who doesn't play Pathfinder, but assuming you DO play Pathfinder, read on!

I did a search of the forum, but nothing came up under SRD.

I anticipate that an integrated (and hyper-linked!) PFSRD would be a very useful part of utilising Realm Works as a complete campaign resource, so my questions are as follows:

  1. Are there any plans for an 'official' or 'semi-official' Pathfinder SRD add on module for Realm Works?
    • 1a. Would there likely be a cost involved/what is the ballpark figure for the package, if it exists?

  2. If there are no plans, have any of the beta testers input data from the PFSRD?
    • 2a. If so, does it work well?
    • 2b. If so, are you planning to share or sell access to your input?

  3. If no-one has started inputting the SRD, what would the interest be in the Realm Works community for this resource?
    • 3a. If no one has done this, I plan to input the data and share it (if legally permissible under the SRD legal rules etc), cost free (Like the Paizo/PFSRD websites do already) - would anyone be interesting in assisting with manual input of data?

It may be early days and we don't really know how data input/integration works yet, but I generally find preparation is the key with projects like this.

Anyway - just some thoughts. let me know if there is any interest. ;)

Cheers,
Jaynay.
 
I can't quite see this happening, and here's why:

RW is about campaign information management. It's about "fluff", not "crunch". For crunch we use HeroLab. The SRD is all crunch. Having access to the SRD in RW does nothing to improve the GM's ability to manage information about the campaign (I believe "Realm" is the RW term). While I expect RW to be able to hold HL .por files, you need HeroLab to process that crunch. And while you can certainly input entire stat blocks into RW, the focus is not around "what creatures in my game have the Vital Strike feat?" but instead it's about "what creatures in my game live in Capital City and know Mage the Archmage and have access to his portal network?"

So I basically don't see the point in having access to the game rules, when RW is explicitly designed to not care about game rules, but be all about the setting, relationships, in- and out-of-character information, and, well, all that fluff.
 
Fair call.

I guess I was coming from the point of being a GM who doesn't like to carry a stack of books to the table and uses the PFSRD website a fair bit to look up rules as needed during the game.

I also use Herolab (for character and combat management), but looking up rules like object hardness, skills/DC's etc, are not always easily accessible from Herolab. The problem with the PFSRD website is when the Internet connection is slow or unreliable, and it always involves me starting up another program (web browser) to access rule material.

This might be a small issue for some, but for convenience, having the SRD accessible, offline and integrated within RW would be worth it for me, and I am betting I am not alone in this.

I agree RW works well for fluff etc, but could be enhanced by integration of rules content hyper-linked to the adventure/fluff content.

I am not sure how to add spoiler tags here, so let me give you a couple of generic examples.
PC's are on a boat and are attacked by pirates. There is a high probability of armoured PCs being bull-rushed over the side of the boat.
In this example it would be useful to have the Combat Manoeuvre rules, swimming and drowning rules and certain skill rules (acrobatics for boarding actions etc) at your fingertips.
If the Pirates have a spell-caster with them who casts darkness, then the rules for darkness, become useful, and so on.

YMMV has never been truer, but I still think this could be a valuable resource.
 
Update 31 for Kickstarter backers shows the Cleric class entered in as a RW article, so I wouldn't be surprised to see the PFSRD in RW, either by Lone Wolf or someone else.

I personally think that it'd be very useful as the fewer places you have to look, the better. I already envision it as a place to put up custom rule information so all players have access to them; same with the game rules.

As far as crunch/fluff, RW has a die roller. I think in terms of RW crunch/fluff is an artificial divide - information is information and RW is designed to provide a way to manage and share information.
 
I wouldn't be suprised to see that one of the entities you can create for your campaign may be able to handle HTML or hyperlinks - so it would be a very small matter to link to any system reference document you may care to add, or to any PDF resources you have stored locally, in the cloud, or on the internet.

The difference between importing an SRD entry through the program or copying and pasting from one window to another is just the reduction of clicks/keypresses and isn't something to be overly concerned with.
 
curufea said:
The difference between importing an SRD entry through the program or copying and pasting from one window to another is just the reduction of clicks/keypresses and isn't something to be overly concerned with.
Click to expand...

Actually, the bigger difference is being able to use it offline versus not being able to use it offline.
 
Oh, that reminds me. Bearing in mind that I haven't seen RW either, but from what I've seen, if the PFSRD is not available, it could be possible for a team of people to enter it in fairly quickly and share it.

So let's say for example you enter in all of the classes and I enter in all of the races and I share my races with you. You could then easily incorporate all of my races information with your classes and then share it - now people would have the races and classes. Simply expand that to all of the other bits and you could quickly have the whole thing entered in.

Again though, that's based only on my understanding based on reading every shred of RW info I can find. We won't know if that's true until we see it.
 
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yeah - I guess that was part of the point of my original post (refer question 3a).

If the community gets together we could each input a part of the data and we would soon have it all in there.
Once input, it would then just be a question of maintenance.

So if there are people who are interested in this, please post here and we can work in teams to get the job done (if needed).

Bear in mind that we don't know what format data files will take and we also don't know if there will will be a official data package that covers this function, but it never hurts to plan ahead.
 
I actually missed that part of 3a (oops). On the other hand, it certainly feels good to have someone thinking the same thing.

I'd kinda wait and see if there's going to be an official word on PFSRD plus as you say, the format may matter - although if you have access to the backer updates on Kickstarter you can see how they entered in the Cleric. That example makes me think it won't be all that complicated.
 
Actually - the more I think about it, the more I realise that limiting RW to 'fluff' only would be gimping the system.

I know Herolab handles character stuff pretty well, but what if you are using a system other that Pathfinder/D20 or the other supported systems?

If I was GM for a Numenera or 13th Age Game, I wouldn't be able to rely on Herolab to handle the 'crunch', so integrating it in to realm works makes a WHOLE LOT more sense.
 
Information is information. It is crunch/fluff agnostic.

For example, I run an ICONS game. We use a custom character sheet program and I will be storing the various files for the program in my ICONS Realm, thus when I click on a given character I can click on that file and it'll open up in the character sheet program. The Open Source content for ICONS has been posted and I'll be putting those rules in my ICONS Realm.

We use another program for random rolls and I can place those files in the appropriate Realms as well.

I'm not at all worried about if the information I put in is fluff or crunch; such a distinction is artificial with Realm Works.

Information is information.
 
The SRD and other rulesets are just data. Add them or not, it's not a big deal as they are strictly reference materials. Some will find that data useful so they can refer directly to the rules when they develop scenarios. Others will want to use the storage/bandwidth they are paying for on actual game content. Heck, it's your pocketbook. Spend your money how you like.

Where I strongly disagree is with the desire to make RW into a calculator or a combat resolver because then you HAVE to have rulesets embedded. For every single game. And you have to ensure they are maintained. I don't know if folks pay attention to the number of changes that HL makes every month to the PF datasets, but that certainly looks like a lot of work. And when you start figuring in house rules and us GM's changing defaults, all bets are off because they can't easily roll out updates without breaking our changes. This way lies chaos....
 
I agree also.

My intent with this post was not to try to shoehorn features in or make RW something that it is not, but really to add (completely optional) content for GM reference to make life easier...and isn't that what RW is already about?

I am completely comfortable using real dice rolls, or using Herolab for most of the logistical side of running the game (combat etc), but having the rules embedded, and available for offline access seems to make a whole lot of sense to me, to make the game easier to run (whatever game you play, really)

I think perhaps I wasn't clear in my original post and there may be some confusion as to what I am talking about here. I DON'T want to make RW something it is not (A VTT or combat manager for example), I am simply talking about adding the rules content in to RW for ease of access and to make it easier to access rules quickly (and offline) whilst at the game table, instead of using a ton of physical books/products.

Yes - we can already do this via the PFSRD (and my group uses this a LOT at the game table), but having this integrated in to RW, alongside your campaign data may streamline the process and saving having to deal with juggling another program at the table and dealing with Internet slowness/connectivity issues at the same time.

Maybe I am completely off base here, but I thought there may be at least some interest in this content/data being integrated in RW, either officially or via a community resource.
 
Jaynay27 said:
I agree also.

My intent with this post was not to try to shoehorn features in or make RW something that it is not, but really to add (completely optional) content for GM reference to make life easier...and isn't that what RW is already about?
Click to expand...

I think it is and it is for all of us.

The spirit I get from Lone Wolf is to use Realm Works as you want to use Realm Works.

I am completely comfortable using real dice rolls, or using Herolab for most of the logistical side of running the game (combat etc), but having the rules embedded, and available for offline access seems to make a whole lot of sense to me, to make the game easier to run (whatever game you play, really)
Click to expand...

I use Hero Lab and Combat Manager for our Pathfinder games, now I'll simply also use Realm Works during the game. I plan on having rules material and what not in Realm Works, even though it's in Combat Manager, for a variety of reasons but one of the main one is an orderly way to share house rules, new rules, and rulings.

Maybe I am completely off base here, but I thought there may be at least some interest in this content/data being integrated in RW, either officially or via a community resource.
Click to expand...

Oh, without a doubt there will be interest and I think it's pretty much a given that it'll be done. I wouldn't be surprised to see the d20 SRD, as well as similar materials for other games like the Mutants and Masterminds 3e open content or FATE, etc.
 
I don't see the problem with links.

Surely if you want to integrate any ruleset you want, all you need do to have it function offline is to have a copy of it on your computer.

Is it impossible to have the Pathfinder source reference document saved on your own machine?
If it's a massive linked hypertext document - surely it can be mirrored and all the pages would act as easily linkable reference pages?

Currently I can write an HTML page full of links to any files I have stored on my computer, no matter what kind of file they are. I can also do this in any Microsoft Office product. Why would Realm Works need functionality other than to enable you to open files you already have for reference?

If you need the automatic cross linking of keywords/tags that Realm Works provides - then create an entity/object that acts as a link to your PFSRD, includes a page reference to the right area, and add a tag to it so that tag can be used in your campaign as needed.

On a side note - I realise I'm getting a bit too librarian-y here, so when I get my copy of the program, I'll write up a tutorial for folk on how to do this.
 
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curufea said:
I don't see the problem with links.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is saying there's a problem with links, only that they won't be optimal for everyone, in every circumstance.

Surely if you want to integrate any ruleset you want, all you need do to have it function offline is to have a copy of it on your computer.

Is it impossible to have the Pathfinder source reference document saved on your own machine?
If it's a massive linked hypertext document - surely it can be mirrored and all the pages would act as easily linkable reference pages?
Click to expand...

Apart from connectivity issues, let me give you a reason why someone may prefer to have the information added to the Realm as opposed to a link to a document.

Links and Tags.

Let's say I have the PRD in Realm Works. I add in an NPC and list out his race, class, skills, and feats. Using tags and hyperlinks, I can go read more information if necessary - and without opening some other program to do it. If I've customized anything, then it's there - and my players can have access to it.

Will your game come crashing down if you don't have that? Certainly not, but ease of use is ease of use. There's a reason why I'm tired of using OneNote plus all of the other programs I've used for this.

Currently I can write an HTML page full of links to any files I have stored on my computer, no matter what kind of file they are. I can also do this in any Microsoft Office product. Why would Realm Works need functionality other than to enable you to open files you already have for reference?
Click to expand...

How easy is it for your players to take advantage of those hyperlinks to the files on your computer? Do you want them to have access to all of the content in those pages?

If you need the automatic cross linking of keywords/tags that Realm Works provides - then create an entity/object that acts as a link to your PFSRD, includes a page reference to the right area, and add a tag to it so that tag can be used in your campaign as needed.
Click to expand...

That is certainly one valid way to approach it. It is not the only one.

On a side note - I realise I'm getting a bit too librarian-y here, so when I get my copy of the program, I'll write up a tutorial for folk on how to do this.
Click to expand...

I look forward to seeing it and appreciate your willingness to write up it.
 
Apologies for my negative-sounding post. I had missed the OP's point about inputting and updating the PRD as a user project - my comments were more along the lines of whether LWD would be doing it for us.

I do still believe that RW is primarily for fluff rather than crunch, but I have no issue with crunch being included where appropriate.

If there weren't so many existing demands upon my time, I would happily lend my services to a community effort to get the PRD available within RW, because I do see utility to it. It just falls far below inputting my campaign setting details in my priorities list. My sole concern is highly dependent on how RW is written - the PRD would be a massively self-referential document, with a huge number of links back and forth. Preventing accidental auto-linking to the wrong item (say I create a "Dead" tag to apply to NPCs who have died - how would RW handle comparing that to the Dead condition from the PRD?) would be high on my personal list of things to ensure didn't happen. Now, since I'm not (yet, hopefully soon to change...) familiar with the tagging and linking features that RW has, would it require a consistent tag format for PRD items? Is RW smart enough to allow selection from a list? Can multiple tags with the same name exist?

As far as I can see (not a programmer!) the worst-case scenario for us as users would be that tags would need to behave like thing IDs in Hero Lab - each tag must be unique to avoid conflicts. That would probably require a community PRD project to have in place an agreed upon nomenclature to try to avoid conflicts. Best case would be that RW can handle multiple tags with the same name and lets you choose none, one, or more of them each time it links something.

Yet another reason I can't wait to get my hands on it.
 
I have been also thinking about having it index all of the rules as well. It is particularly useful for it to be able to act as a database for 3rd party stuff that you want to allow in your game. In effect, it is a compilation of the rules, official + house, that will be used in the given campaign. It is an awesome idea.

For example, I want spells out of this book, that book, two specific spells from this other book. Guess what? My campaign would have links to just that specific data. Did I like a spell but I wanted to modify it? It goes to the modified version.

While we are talking mostly Pathfinder here, the concept is equally useful for virtually every game. I say virtually because some games have less rules than others and no "expansions".

Savage Worlds, while considered to be a simple system, can really benefit from this. I am sure that I am not the only one that likes to use edges. or at least variations of them, from one setting to use in another. Having a Savage Compendium that can be used in your given campaign is a very cool idea.

I do not like linking to specific files. For one thing, getting a pdf to open up on a specific page can be problematic. So, I would want to have a copy of it. Why put it in a Word document when I can instead link it within Realm Works? That is where I want to use it anyway. If I wanted to print it all off, I would use Word. But I don't want to kill a forest, and the point of electronic versions is that they are more accessible (especially for me, I am legally blind in my good eye). I can zoom a screen. It can get very frustrating to read by using a magnifier. I read a lot slower that way. And copy-paste and modify as needed is awesome.
 
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