Realm Works Pre-Release Update

[Nikmal]

Originally Posted by EightBitz

Bodrin,

As a user (not a developer), can you explain what the missing features are and why they warrant the delay? Can you explain why, if the software is as good and as use able as everyone keeps saying, the delay is still warranted? Because that's what's confusing us.

Also, in response to other comments, vaporware is software that hasn't been publicly released, regardless of whether or not it exists. I don't have the definition wrong. I invite Rob to prove me wrong anytime he pleases. If, and only if, that happens, you'll all be justified in pointing and laughing at me as LWD takes my money. But it has to be released first.

EightBitz.
There are still people that are having major crashes to the software and even to their systems because of it. From what I have seen there are memory leaks. Some people that have been in BETA and or in the Early Buy in Beta release people that have not been able to access the software at all and has recently been fixed for them. I am talking months here without being able to use Realmworks at all. Some people are having problems Syncing with the cloud with out crashing completely.

It is not all a bed of Roses and it is tough for Lone Wolf to see all of this happening I am sure. I know I see them working at all hours and now even on the Holidays to get this out and see the frustration and understandably so of not getting it in their hands when the release is so close and yet so far away. It is a tough pill to swallow. But on the same hand it is going to be released and knowing the problems that have been happening in one form or other it could be worse if they released it now.

Imagine if you will: If you had paid money for a supposedly finished product but you are unable to use it at all... would you be more or less upset with it not being released or with it being released and not able to use it due to lack of fixed issues? Or even being able to use the software because you can't create a realm or if you do create a realm and get alot of work done only to have it crash and loose it all?

So in seeing both sides I understand where you are coming from and Lone Wolf. There is no easy answer to how this should be handled other then how they have been and hopefully no other crashes will happen with the BETA team and finally get a stable and good release going on to all of us.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!!

[EightBitz]

Originally Posted by Nikmal

EightBitz.
There are still people that are having major crashes to the software and even to their systems because of it. From what I have seen there are memory leaks. Some people that have been in BETA and or in the Early Buy in Beta release people that have not been able to access the software at all and has recently been fixed for them. I am talking months here without being able to use Realmworks at all. Some people are having problems Syncing with the cloud with out crashing completely.

It is not all a bed of Roses and it is tough for Lone Wolf to see all of this happening I am sure. I know I see them working at all hours and now even on the Holidays to get this out and see the frustration and understandably so of not getting it in their hands when the release is so close and yet so far away. It is a tough pill to swallow. But on the same hand it is going to be released and knowing the problems that have been happening in one form or other it could be worse if they released it now.

Imagine if you will: If you had paid money for a supposedly finished product but you are unable to use it at all... would you be more or less upset with it not being released or with it being released and not able to use it due to lack of fixed issues? Or even being able to use the software because you can't create a realm or if you do create a realm and get alot of work done only to have it crash and loose it all?

So in seeing both sides I understand where you are coming from and Lone Wolf. There is no easy answer to how this should be handled other then how they have been and hopefully no other crashes will happen with the BETA team and finally get a stable and good release going on to all of us.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!!

First, thank you for an even-tempered reply.

A couple of things . . .

We've been told since August that it's close to release. They wanted to get it out for GenCon, then they wanted to get it out in October, then for Christmas. And each time, it's been "We're close to release." In a previous update, we were led to believe that the main hurdle was Cloud Syncing, and once that was sorted out, everything would be hunky dory. Now cloud syncing is, presumably, sorted out (though that impression may turn out to be inaccurate), and now it's "Wait, there are other major bugs we have to sort out. It wasn't just cloud syncing."

OK, fine. How many more months will take to sort out these major system crashes?

I would rather pay for a buggy version now, as long as I understand that it's buggy, than have no idea how much longer I have to wait for a fixed version. Telling me I should have backed the Kickstarter is pointless given that we're five months passed the estimated release on the Kickstarter, and have missed at least three projected release dates since then.

[KefkaZ]

Originally Posted by Nikmal

EightBitz.
There are still people that are having major crashes to the software and even to their systems because of it. From what I have seen there are memory leaks. Some people that have been in BETA and or in the Early Buy in Beta release people that have not been able to access the software at all and has recently been fixed for them. I am talking months here without being able to use Realmworks at all. Some people are having problems Syncing with the cloud with out crashing completely.

It is not all a bed of Roses and it is tough for Lone Wolf to see all of this happening I am sure. I know I see them working at all hours and now even on the Holidays to get this out and see the frustration and understandably so of not getting it in their hands when the release is so close and yet so far away. It is a tough pill to swallow. But on the same hand it is going to be released and knowing the problems that have been happening in one form or other it could be worse if they released it now.

Imagine if you will: If you had paid money for a supposedly finished product but you are unable to use it at all... would you be more or less upset with it not being released or with it being released and not able to use it due to lack of fixed issues? Or even being able to use the software because you can't create a realm or if you do create a realm and get alot of work done only to have it crash and loose it all?

So in seeing both sides I understand where you are coming from and Lone Wolf. There is no easy answer to how this should be handled other then how they have been and hopefully no other crashes will happen with the BETA team and finally get a stable and good release going on to all of us.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!!

Thank you. The extent of the bugs and how show-stopping they could be is the piece of information that made things fit for me. And although I'm not a programmer, I get how bugs can be tough to put a timeline on, especially when you don't want to cut corners. The problem was all non-backers were only hearing 1) it's close to release 2) The program is great guys! You'll love it! Well, those two don't jive. Knowing that there are rough edges and more importantly the severity of the rough edges is the third data point I needed.

[bodrin]

Originally Posted by EightBitz

Bodrin,

As a user (not a developer), can you explain what the missing features are and why they warrant the delay? Can you explain why, if the software is as good and as use able as everyone keeps saying, the delay is still warranted? Because that's what's confusing us.

Certainly. But not the missing features! NDA!

I've entered three amounts of data for testing.

The first is a "Realm" for my current Adventure Path campaign.
The second is "Realm" that only required illustrations and a map.
The third is a smaller copy of my current Adventure Path campaign. Due to a corrupted back up.

During entry of all the 3 datasets I've had to contend with, BSOD, intermittent data loss / corruption, catastrophic crashing, the inability to launch the program due to a catastrophic crash. Unresponsive maps, unresponsive crash reporting, server errors, memory leaks, disappearing cursors etc. etc. etc.

These have all happened whilst using the Realmworks program pre game, post game and in game. They have all been reported via bug reports, email and pm. Current states of the databases have been analysed restored and reworked separately by LW and myself.

Now I am still coloured impressed with the program despite these bugs but it still isn't ready for release. Because of other bugs that have been reported.

Even when I had 6 players sat around my game table watching a blank monitor that had only moments before displayed a "Dungeon" map and pertinent details the game still continued, however I was without my tactical console as Hero Lab had also crashed due to the Realmworks crash.

Now if I'd have not had my campaign notes on paper copies the game would have stopped whilst I waited for the laptop to reboot, Realmworks to restart, if it hadn't corrupted the Database, and Hero Lab to reboot.
Neither of the two programs or the laptop start quickly enough to maintain the impetus of the game session!

[EightBitz]

Originally Posted by bodrin

Certainly. But not the missing features! NDA!

I've entered three amounts of data for testing.

The first is a "Realm" for my current Adventure Path campaign.
The second is "Realm" that only required illustrations and a map.
The third is a smaller copy of my current Adventure Path campaign. Due to a corrupted back up.

During entry of all the 3 datasets I've had to contend with, BSOD, intermittent data loss / corruption, catastrophic crashing, the inability to launch the program due to a catastrophic crash. Unresponsive maps, unresponsive crash reporting, server errors, memory leaks, disappearing cursors etc. etc. etc.

These have all happened whilst using the Realmworks program pre game, post game and in game. They have all been reported via bug reports, email and pm. Current states of the databases have been analysed restored and reworked separately by LW and myself.

Now I am still coloured impressed with the program despite these bugs but it still isn't ready for release. Because of other bugs that have been reported.

Even when I had 6 players sat around my game table watching a blank monitor that had only moments before displayed a "Dungeon" map and pertinent details the game still continued, however I was without my tactical console as Hero Lab had also crashed due to the Realmworks crash.

Now if I'd have not had my campaign notes on paper copies the game would have stopped whilst I waited for the laptop to reboot, Realmworks to restart, if it hadn't corrupted the Database, and Hero Lab to reboot.
Neither of the two programs or the laptop start quickly enough to maintain the impetus of the game session!

Thank you for the explanation.

So, then how about this? If the problems are that extensive, stop saying it's close to release. Because it doesn't sound like it is close to release. My frustration is not only with the delays. It's also with the missed release dates compounding the uncertainty that any future release dates will be reliable.

So just be more honest and say, "We still have some major challenges ahead, and it's definitely going to be a while before it's released. We honestly have no idea when that will be until we fix these major flaws."

Why is that so difficult?

[EightBitz]

Originally Posted by bodrin

Certainly. But not the missing features! NDA!

I've entered three amounts of data for testing.

The first is a "Realm" for my current Adventure Path campaign.
The second is "Realm" that only required illustrations and a map.
The third is a smaller copy of my current Adventure Path campaign. Due to a corrupted back up.

During entry of all the 3 datasets I've had to contend with, BSOD, intermittent data loss / corruption, catastrophic crashing, the inability to launch the program due to a catastrophic crash. Unresponsive maps, unresponsive crash reporting, server errors, memory leaks, disappearing cursors etc. etc. etc.

These have all happened whilst using the Realmworks program pre game, post game and in game. They have all been reported via bug reports, email and pm. Current states of the databases have been analysed restored and reworked separately by LW and myself.

Now I am still coloured impressed with the program despite these bugs but it still isn't ready for release. Because of other bugs that have been reported.

Even when I had 6 players sat around my game table watching a blank monitor that had only moments before displayed a "Dungeon" map and pertinent details the game still continued, however I was without my tactical console as Hero Lab had also crashed due to the Realmworks crash.

Now if I'd have not had my campaign notes on paper copies the game would have stopped whilst I waited for the laptop to reboot, Realmworks to restart, if it hadn't corrupted the Database, and Hero Lab to reboot.
Neither of the two programs or the laptop start quickly enough to maintain the impetus of the game session!

Bodrin,

One more question. Are you happy to have the software, or would rather you were still waiting for its public release?

[Mead]

Originally Posted by EightBitz

Bodrin,

As a user (not a developer), can you explain what the missing features are and why they warrant the delay? Can you explain why, if the software is as good and as use able as everyone keeps saying, the delay is still warranted? Because that's what's confusing us.

Also, in response to other comments, vaporware is software that hasn't been publicly released, regardless of whether or not it exists. I don't have the definition wrong. I invite Rob to prove me wrong anytime he pleases. If, and only if, that happens, you'll all be justified in pointing and laughing at me as LWD takes my money. But it has to be released first.

It has been released to the public. I and the other Kickstarter donors are public.... Just not the entire public yet. It's not vaporware.

It is wonderfully useable... but I can guarantee they need to ease it into the wider public..

We get that you are anxious, but I would rather they do it right, and slowly.. then to rush it and screw up. That would hurt everyone.

[EightBitz]

Originally Posted by Mead

It has been released to the public. I and the other Kickstarter donors are public.... Just not the entire public yet. It's not vaporware.

It is wonderfully useable... but I can guarantee they need to ease it into the wider public..

We get that you are anxious, but I would rather they do it right, and slowly.. then to rush it and screw up. That would hurt everyone.

A conflict exists between "wonderfully useable [sic]" and "not releasable." It can't be both. If it's wonderfully usable, then it's releasable.

So, which is it?

[fhscholl]

This whole thing has been mismanaged and is a complete nightmare from a project management and development point of view. I understand this is massive undertaking, but there is really no reason it should be 6 months behind schedule and still not ready for a release. Your de-motivation isn't from EightBitz opinion; it's from the management of this project and the inability to properly set expectations.

It's been repeatedly stated that you are trying to make the best product to the highest quality standards. Great, but there needs to be some give somewhere. Duke Nukem Forever took forever to actually release even though there were screenshots and video from it 10+ years ago. They wanted it to be the best too.

Introversion makes some of the best indy games out there, but they are well aware that they take forever to do so. So much so that they started to sell pre-release keys for the alpha releases of their newest game, Prison Architect.

The most frustrating part of this whole thing really is: it exists, it is working, and since I didn't find out about the KS until it was over, I can't get it. I am willing to pay you today for exactly what the KS backers have knowing there are still some kinks to work out, but for some reason you won't give it to me.

[EightBitz]

As for the rest of you who have been besmirching my name, I've held back because Rob asked me to. My satisfaction is in knowing that every time you Kickstart backers get all smug about how great the software is, you only further support our argument that it is ready to be pre-released, thereby justifying our frustration that it hasn't been.

So thank you to all of you as well.