Would it be possible to update the core files?

[jfrazierjr]

Ok, so I don't know exactly how all of this works, but I am going to ask anyway and the worst I will get back is a no.

Would it be possible to add Racial Edge Point Cost(as per Racial Property, raceCstVal) as a child of the Racial Ability object? Ie, if I create a Racial Ability, I would like to have the point cost for said ability recorded. It would be incredible great if an extra part could have these summed for the race somewhere(perhaps on the Race selection screen), though I don't know if that's possible or not.

Also, would it be possible to add a Domain field to Racial Ability?

I assume this would be CC who updates the core files and then gives them to LW to compile and including in the executable download.

 

[zarlor]

If you need the cost why don't you just create it as a Racial Property instead? That's really the main fundamental difference between a Racial Ability and a Racial Property. There's certainly nothing preventing the use of a Property in place of anywhere you have an Ability.

The other question is definitely more of a CC question, although sometimes you can still do some of those things in other places by trying it with the code directly in the XML (.user) file. Some things will work just fine even if there isn't a setup in the Editor to handle it.

 

[jfrazierjr]

If you need the cost why don't you just create it as a Racial Property instead? That's really the main fundamental difference between a Racial Ability and a Racial Property. There's certainly nothing preventing the use of a Property in place of anywhere you have an Ability.

Well.. I don't really "need" it. I mean it's much more of a nice to have as I can always do it on paper if the worst comes to worst. This was much more of a want. Again, I don't even know that it's possible, but it appears that the source code is extremely extensible, so again, I figured I would ask.

The other question is definitely more of a CC question, although sometimes you can still do some of those things in other places by trying it with the code directly in the XML (.user) file. Some things will work just fine even if there isn't a setup in the Editor to handle it.

The problem is that I don't really know of an easy example to work from. I am a developer and former support tech, so unspooling things is something I am fairly proficient at, but with over half of the source obscured, it makes it significantly more difficult. I can, and do use Notepad++ to Find in Files, but that only works for .user files which the main source is not in(though, the recent addition of many campaign supplements .user files might make this far easier now!)

Perhaps if I explained what I was expecting/trying to do. I am converting from D&D and I have one player who is a Dragonborn. He wants to keep his Breath Weapon. For NOW, I have simply added it as a Racial Ability and bootstrapped the skill(and I think I picked a Domain for that, so I have a sort of work around)

Eventually, what I would really like would be to get to a point where picking the race would then present a dropdown menu with the list of available trappings for said racial ability, but this should only happen if the ability has the "has domain" field check(or whatever it's called). As well, the ability to link the ability to a specific attribute(upon which the skill would then be based) would be extra keen. A likely issue with this approach is that the Race is a simple dropdown/popup instead of it's own tab in the editor. I am looking at 4E's UI and the data files, but having trouble figuring out where they do the prompt in the thing definition.

The problem I see(and I could be wrong) is that there is no way to "extend" base things to add new fields/properties/etc to existing objects.

Let me give you a good example. Let's say I wanted to some new tags to various weapons so that in OTHER code down the line, I could filter more easily. A perfect example is the current code base sets up WeaponType.MedAxes. The issue with this is that straight out of the book, it also includes Mauls. So I can't easily(that I know of!) add a new tag named WeaponSubset.Axes and then extend only the 4-5 actual axes in the game. The GOAL would then be to create an edge which gives a +1 bonus damage to Axes. Currently, the way to do this is filter by the MedAxes and the check a substring of the name which is, well crazy. Conceptually, why can't I just add a new tag to the existing items without having to copy/paste each and every one and do a preclude.

Sorry, I am a programmer, so I tend to think like a programmer would. I am not trying to demean LW or all you guys who have contributed an immense amount of your time to making these data files, just wanting to get a better understanding of what can and can't be done, both from a "current state" of how the data files were built AS WELL as limitations of the actual software.

I really need to get back to following the example AuthoringKit tutorial, but I have a feeling that since it's old, there will be steps missing(which I seem to think others have noted) as well as even if I did fully build my own custom interface, I would then not benefit from defect fixes to the original data files during releases, and since those are COMPILED, I could not easily backport the changes to my custom version.

 

[jfrazierjr]

For the record above, I can very vaguely see how 4E is doing this.

They have a procedure named ReqFeature which operates on the drgBrthTyp which is a compset of RaceFeat, and then that is bootstrapped to the actual race. This is what powers the prompt for sub type dropdown box. Of course, the issue is that the ability to have a dropdown box to start with has to be also coded to the panel itself.

 

[zarlor]

If you want to look at the source files just take a look in the "source" directory in the data directory where your .user files are. Modifying those won't do anything, mind you, but you can run through them to see how things are done in settings files for the base Savage Worlds setting, at least. Those are supposedly the latest up-to-date version, too, unlike the Wiki.

Also being critical of the code base on this won't offend me at all. I've been a pretty vocal critic of some things I would like to see changed, as have others, but some of that hinges on not having quite the same resources (probably, in part, to Lone Wolf not getting anywhere near the same income) as something like Pathfinder. That doesn't mean I don't use what we have extensively, mind you, but I always figure it never hurts to ask for the things we'd like to see the program capable of doing as well.

 

[jfrazierjr]

If you want to look at the source files just take a look in the "source" directory in the data directory where your .user files are. Modifying those won't do anything, mind you, but you can run through them to see how things are done in settings files for the base Savage Worlds setting, at least. Those are supposedly the latest up-to-date version, too, unlike the Wiki.

I guess I did not understand that concept. So.. this is great that at least the core data files are readable in "plain text".



Ok.. so looking at traits.str, I see

<component
id="RaceAbil"
name="Racial Ability"
autocompset="no">

Under that is a number of fields such as abilValue, abilText, abilUsrVal, abilUsrText. In the editor, there is a checkbox for "text Info Needed" and "value Info Needed" which I am confident are what would "power" prompts(these are the underlying things which would hold the entered data by the end user). The issue is, I don't know how to do the prompts. Selecting those checkboxes does not appear to do anything. My assumption here is that this is because Race is a dropdown->popup window instead of a fullly fledged editor tab which would make populating end user choices a bit easier(not that it could not be done with successive popups, just like advances are done with popups).

I guess some of my frustration is with myself for not having yet completed the sample game set tutorial. I am seeing fields in the various source files, but those fields don't show up in the editor as options, nor in the actual character creation runtime environment and I don't quite know how to mentally link the various concepts.

Also being critical of the code base on this won't offend me at all. I've been a pretty vocal critic of some things I would like to see changed, as have others, but some of that hinges on not having quite the same resources (probably, in part, to Lone Wolf not getting anywhere near the same income) as something like Pathfinder. That doesn't mean I don't use what we have extensively, mind you, but I always figure it never hurts to ask for the things we'd like to see the program capable of doing as well.

Well.. that's the point in this post. My understanding is that CC and/or someone who is NOT a LW employee works on the updates to the data files(and please correct me if I am wrong in this). They are then submitted to LW for compilation and inclusion in the next release of the main program. Basically, the underlying flexibility is almost certainly there to build the UI in whatever way someone wants(within reason) using XML and scripting or there would not be the ability to support so many game systems or an "authoring kit" for new game systems. I am just asking if we can extend our current BASE UI using the existing tools HeroLab provides.

 

[zarlor]

Actually Caped Crusader is a part-time/contract employee for LoneWolf, although he didn't create the initial code base for the setting used. He's probably the best person to answer questions about the sore system coding and UI extensibility and the like. He's also the one who handles some of the purchased content, such as the Companion sets (Fantasy, Super Powers, Horror). It's the rest of the setting data files that are often just fan-made and maintained, like all of mine, as freebies. There is a review process for settings made available through the official update mechanism in Hero Lab, but outside of that it's all fan-maintained.

 

[Paragon]

Yeah, there's actually three tiers of things:
1. Official add-ons (the Companion sets and the like)
2. Official updated fan-made material (most of Zarlor's stuff).
3. Fan material not coming through the updater (a few of Zarlor's, my Broken Earth file, and a lot of other material).

 

[CapedCrusader]

The Racial Properties are built to use the point system for the Race Building. The Racial Abilities pre-date this and are mainly for Creatures. They are completely separate.

 

[CapedCrusader]

And Paragon has described the situation very well...

 

[CapedCrusader]

To understand Value Info Needed, check abSize. There's a field called abilValue, and this tells the program that a value is needed in this field for the Ability to work correctly. Text Info Needed has a different use that I'm not as familiar with, as it doesn't get used much in Savage Worlds.

 

[jfrazierjr]

The Racial Properties are built to use the point system for the Race Building. The Racial Abilities pre-date this and are mainly for Creatures. They are completely separate.

Ok.. so would you suggest moving my existing 3(or so) racial abilities over the Racial Properties? Coming from D&D, after looking at the 4E file formats(very briefly), my mind seems to think that RaceAbility(Savage Worlds) and RaceFeat(4e) are very roughly equivalent concepts the game system, just given different names in the Herolab files and with different levels of additional properties.

 

[CapedCrusader]

Racial Abilities were named a long time ago, way before I came into the picture. I am the one who named Racial Properties, though, so issues with similarity can be laid at my feet. If you want them to use that point system they'll need to be Properties.

 

[Paragon]

For what its worth, I put everything new I do in that regard in Racial Properties as a matter of course.