Value proposition for players?

[sqrw]

Hello fellow HLO users,
I just had an exchange with support since I thought players not being able to do character profession is a bug but it seems to be an intended limitations for Demo accounts even in a campaign shared with Patron sharing. I would like to ask for suggestions of how to make a point for players why they should pay for HLO.

Let me start with a bit of background, I as a GM enjoy HLO, it's a nice interface, as I'm working in software myself I can stomach the bugs and where there are missing features I see a potential of what HLO can become when it continues to grow. So I got a Patron subscription bought the CRB and suggested my players to make a account and join the campaign - that's a easy sell, yes it's a new account no one lines that, but it makes my life as GM easier to be able to quickly brows peoples Sheets and I hope that with time HLO can replace tools like roll20.

Turns out I was wrong, you can't invite players "for free" into a Patron campaign, I mean you can but even for campaign owned characters their abilities are limited to creating a character but not adding journal entries or other progression tasks.

Now I got to have the discussion with my group why they should pay money for HLO. And if I put myself in the shoes of a player I come up blank. I tried to argue this out with myself and It pretty much goes like this:

GM (me trying to argue for HLO):
+ I can look at your sheets easily.
+ It looks nice?

Player (me imagining I'm asked to pay money as a player):
- I got to pay money.
- Not using HLO I could save one login since still got to have a roll20, and a discord account anyway.
- Genesis lets me build characters for free with a nicer final sheet.
- I need to buy the CRB anyway.
- It's beta software why do I need to pay money for that?
- You can also just look at PDFs if you want our sheets.
- HLO is quite buggy.

So I hope to outsource some ideas to improve this conversation to the favor of why HLO for a player?

 

[flyteach]

- it's faster and the inherent validation helps ensure the rules are followed
- you don't need many sheets of paper and you can't rub eraser holes in character sheets as you level up
- conditions and combat states are automatically adjusted on the playsheet

 

[sqrw]

Hi flyteach,
thanks those are some good points! I will sure bring them up with the group! I agree with all of them, especially #1 and #2 were my main reasons to push for HLO in the first place , #3 we don't use since combat happens in roll20 where we have a dice roller and HLO doesn't and jumping forth and back between web pages would totally destroy the flow. For the sake of the discussion I'll add, with my player hat on a thought to every of the points.

- it's faster and the inherent validation helps ensure the rules are followed

I can do the same with Genesis, for free and I only create a character once why do I need to pay a subscription fee?

- you don't need many sheets of paper and you can't rub eraser holes in character sheets as you level up

PDFs can be edited and advancement is rare enough.

- conditions and combat states are automatically adjusted on the playsheet

We are not currently using that since it's painful to jump between apps.


--

Reading my "arguments" against it I start to get the feeling that the biggest concern I have is the "needing multiple tools" part, perhaps the "solution" for making this argument to my group is waiting until shared dice rolling is implemented and then make the argument that we can get rid of a tool.

 

[Farling]

I can do the same with Genesis, for free and I only create a character once why do I need to pay a subscription fee?

HL certainly allows you to level up, so it isn't using it just once.

 

[Farling]

We are not currently using that since it's painful to jump between apps.

Are you all playing on phones?

With a PC or other computer you simply have multiple tabs open on your browser.

You start Discord and never switch back to that tab.
Having HLO and roll20 side-by-side would be simple enough?

 

[sqrw]

HL certainly allows you to level up, so it isn't using it just once.

That's a valid point, it still is something you can do in a PDF just as well (and at least currently easier)

Are you all playing on phones?

With a PC or other computer you simply have multiple tabs open on your browser.

You start Discord and never switch back to that tab.
Having HLO and roll20 side-by-side would be simple enough?

You can't discount that not everyone has a modern wide screen setup, having two browsers next to each other is still something that, 1920 x 1080 is still a resolution more then 80% of people are stuck at [1]. At that resolution two tabs next to it would look like this:

which makes for a not that pleasant experience since side panel pinning is disabled so you got to fold and unfold constantly to move between pages. It also auto hides the modified quarantines like defense rolls unless you unfold them every click. So lets discount side by side as an option.


The alternative is two tabs, which leads to the workflow of:

1) switch from r20 tab to hlo tab
2) nativate to the right place, or add adjustments, or whatever is required
3) find the dice pool, memorize it
4) swap back to roll20, type the command with the memorized dice pool

The process of adding an adjustment isn't exactly "easy" or a pleasant UX either and I'd argue not worth it for a player that only needs to keep track of a single character. But quite useful if, as a GM you need to juggle a number of them.

1) click navigate char (top left)
2) scroll down to Adventuring
3) click Status Effects
4) click +
5) find the right effect
6) click the effect
6a) make sure not to accidentally click somewhere outside the box or it closes again)
7) click add and close
8) if needed adjust to the right level

[1] https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam (that statistic looks at PC gamers it is very likely worse for if looking at a wider audience)

 

[Shadowfoot]

I had a much easier experience with my players. In our first session we manually created PF2e characters then I created them in HLO (and found several things we missed). Each time the party levelled up I told them the options and made the changes. When we started Age of Ashes everyone created new characters themselves and I duplicated them in my account. We continued levelling up that way. When Patron was available I was able to transfer the characters to the players who bought apprentice accounts.

It has made it much easier for everyone learning a new system and it’s the only thing that players have had to pay for.

 

[flyteach]

OK, I was trying to figure out what the Genesis is you're speaking of. You neglected to say (and I neglected to ask/clarify) that you are talking about Shadowrun. I was speaking from the viewpoint of Starfinder/Pathfinder which are the only systems I play. And currently, there aren't any other supported tools for character generation for those systems. So, for me and the systems I play, there's no comparison. I can't speak for Shadowrun.

 

[dacoobob]

And currently, there aren't any other supported tools for character generation for those systems.

Not sure about Starfinder, but for Pathfinder there is the Pathbuilder app. It's free, has versions for both 1e and 2e, is free, has a very nice and slick UI, is free, is well-supported, and is free.

 

[Itzi]

I've tried out Pathbuilder. I couldn't get past the fact that it's a phone app only. If I want to run it on my PC (where I spend most of my time for RPGs lately) I have to use a clumsy emulator. Gah!

I am really champing at the bit for PF1 to come to HLO so I can centralize my character management.

 

[bruuuuuu]

PCGen allows for the creation of Starfinder characters. HLO is not the only tool for character creation for Starfinder, and I understand that there are several fillable PDFs out there for 2e and Starfinder.

 

[flyteach]

PCGen, yes, but it's no longer under active development. Fillable PDFs are not character creation software, they are merely mimics if what you can write with an old fashioned pencil after creating your character.

 

[Roadie]

PCGen, yes, but it's no longer under active development. Fillable PDFs are not character creation software, they are merely mimics if what you can write with an old fashioned pencil after creating your character.

Also, the value of Hero Lab (either version) goes well past any fillable PDF, since it does all the secondary calculations of everything, toggled adjustments, etc.

 

[LazarX]

I've tried out Pathbuilder. I couldn't get past the fact that it's a phone app only. If I want to run it on my PC (where I spend most of my time for RPGs lately) I have to use a clumsy emulator. Gah!

I am really champing at the bit for PF1 to come to HLO so I can centralize my character management.

With the new insider build for Windows, running Android apps is now an option.

With HLO's total lack of support for third party content, or portfolio export, I'm not that anxious to lose PF1 from Classic.

 

[bruuuuuu]

I'm curious why you think you might be losing Pathfinder 1e from Herolab Classic? Lonewolf have been quite clear that the product isn't disappearing. Heck, I've even seen updates to it in the last several months. That system isn't going away, it's just no longer the flagship product.

 

[thaX]

HLC is still around, and available, but with no new licenses as various gaming editions go to the new shiny, HLC will eventually phase out of use in favor of the supported HLO.

Not to say Lonewolf won't continue to support the program that gave them so much in the past, from the cash flow of bought product to good word of mouth of the product. It is that once the licenses are able to be used in the App HLO instead, there will be a migration from HLC to HLO.

It would be nice to be able to have some choices with the print out, from Character sheet formats to user ability to make their own (Or use someone's that is offered like HLC) For now, the print out is much improved and serviceable. (Still doesn't have the notes on it or the Spell DC section)

This is where HLC exceeds where HLO is somewhat lacking. We are not online all the time, so access to this App is not something to expect at the table. We need the paper representation of that character. It is also something the Excel sheets have done well for more than the few licenses HLO has right now.

 

[Farling]

I suspect that LWD will support adding content to PF1 if Paizo were still producing content, but Paizo see PF1 as dead.

 

[thaX]

Oh, most definanatly. My overall feel for the situation is that the support for HLC will continue for the foreseeable future. It is just that newer editions and games will be put on the App (HLO) instead.