Skill points due to intelligence increase.

[Leonal]

Hi,

According to RAW a permanent increase of int bonus changes your skill points retroactively.
Thus a character which got an even numbered intelligence score at lvl 4 or 8 would increase the total number of skill points and not just from that point and onward.
So a 9th lvl wizard with an int score of 22 (18 base, 2 racial, 2 lvl), would have a total of 72 skill points((2+6)*9) before adding racial and favored bonuses.

At the moment the program only adds from that point onward. (giving the 9th level wizard 65 total skill points)

Discussion on the topic at the Paizo boards, with a quote from J. Bulmahn at the end.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboard...inderRPG/rules/archives/intelligenceIncreases

Jason's response in the forum for GenCon GM's:

Ugh... Can't sleep.

Noticed this bit in the Appendices on Ability bonuses:

This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses.

(Emphasis mine) If the PC's intelligence score goes up, do they get retroactive skill ranks?

Yes.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

edit: Sorry if this should've been in the bug report thread.

Thanks,
-Leonal

 

[Mathias]

Since I couldn't figure out what the book intended for changes to intelligence back when I was initially setting up the files, I left the changing intelligence rules using the SRD mechanics, figuring the question would eventually be answered in a FAQ.

Thanks, I'll get this changed.

 

[JimGroves]

Mathias,

This ruling is correct and does pertain to Wish spells and magical Tomes that grant permanent intelligence increases, as well as natural ability score increases that happen on 4th, 8th, 12th levels etc... HOWEVER, this quote does not apply to Headbands that increase intelligence scores.

It is critical for folks to understand that the section on Permanent Ability Increases on Page 555 encompasses more than one method of increasing an ability score. What became all the rage on the Paizo boards is that folks started considering that passage only in the context of Ability Increasing Items, and ignoring that the passage also has to apply to Wishes and Tomes.

The retroactive skill point increase does not happen specifically with Headbands of Vast Intelligence and related Headbands that increase intelligence. The Core Book itself is semi-specific on this in the description of the Headbands themselves, but does not clarify that it is an exception to the overall rule on Page 555.

Headbands of Vast Intelligence were deemed to be too abusive when allowed to grant unspecified Skill ranks. One simply took them off and wore them for 24 hours and became a "new expert" in any field you wanted.

Headbands of Vast Intelligence are considered to be permanent Int increases, but they do not grant retroactive Skill Points. They grant fixed skill ranks determined by the GM or at the time of their crafting, and those skill ranks do not stack with any existing skill ranks in that skill. Per the items description. They act in other ways as a permanent skill increase, i.e. additional bonus spells and increased INT modifier

INT increases from Wishes and Tmes grant the retroactive skill point increases as the Original Poster described.

I have posted where this got clarified by James Jacobs, Pathfinder Editor-in-Chief, before.. But I'll post those passages again.

 

[JimGroves]

This passage is from October 8, 2009.

It's easy to see why in 3.5 the Intelligence boosting items didn't mess with your skill points, ain't it?

The headband of vast intelligence grants you an Intelligence bonus. We wanted it to also grant skill points, since that's what increased intelligence scores do. What we DIDN'T want was a situation where you get an item that grants an INT bonus and put it on your head and get to pick where those extra skill ranks go there and then... because then what's keeping you from putting those ranks in to, say, Appraise, but then when you get to a locked door you can just take the item off and then put it back on your head and say, "Now those skill ranks are adding to my Disable Device!" Makes the item WAY too versatile.

So the solution was to "hard code" the skill ranks into each item. That way, when you find an INT boosting head band, you not only know what the skill ranks it grants are, but when you take it off and put it back on or pass it around to your friends, it stays the same. It removes the whole "What do I want to be good at today?" problem. And that DOES mean that sometimes you'll find an INT boosting item that overlaps with skill ranks you already have, but that's fine with me since you're still enjoying all the other benefits of the increased INT score just like you did in 3.5 (which, remember, doesn't grant ANY skill ranks for INT boosters).

(Emphasis mine)You certainly don't get the bonus ranks hard coded into the item AND another batch of skill ranks to spend as you wish.

I'll make sure Jason knows that this'll be something we should add to the FAQ. It's not really errata, since it's not really a correction. It's just something that needs more explanation.

EDIT: I'm not sure if excluding bonus languages from the things the headband grants was an oversight or intentional. I think it might have been intentional, but I'm not sure.

The original post was in this thread: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboard...dOfVastIntelligenceSkillSkillpoints&page=1#27

And actually I posted it for Mathias here: http://forums.wolflair.com/showpost.php?p=33476&postcount=9


I'm not trying to give Leonal a hard time, but I really busted my backside on the Paizo forums to get that clarification.. and argued with dozens of people who pointed to that same passage that Leonal quotes as evidence of how the Headbands of Vast Intelligence should be allowed to be misused.

Again, the overall rule passage on Page 555 has to cover more than just one methodology of how Intelligence can be increased and what the effects are.

 

[Mathias]

Don't headbands currently work as they should (as of v2.0)? You select the skill(s) on the headband, and it applies ranks directly to that skill (and after figuring out how many ranks to apply, adds the same number of total ranks).

All I intended to change was the +1 attribute / 4 levels. Bonuses from a wish spell are added on the adjust tab, using the "Attribute (Starting)" adjustment.

 

[JimGroves]

Don't headbands currently work as they should (as of v2.0)? You select the skill(s) on the headband, and it applies ranks directly to that skill (and after figuring out how many ranks to apply, adds the same number of total ranks).

I'll double check, but at the time I wrote this, I assumed the Headbands were working correctly. They should be allowing wizards to potentially get additional bonus spells and increasing the overall INT modifier.

All I intended to change was the +1 attribute / 4 levels. Bonuses from a wish spell are added on the adjust tab, using the "Attribute (Starting)" adjustment.

I suspected as much, so if it sounded like I was jumpinjg down your throat I sincerely apologize.

I just didn't want the Headbands to be changed back from the way you fixed them in 2.0, to the common misinterpretation. Trust me, I had people arguing up and down and absolutely refusing to bend on how the Headbands should be adjudicated until Paizo finally waded in. Most of the folks arguing referred to same quote Leonal provided as support for their position.

Sorry again, I just didn't want to see this get confused again.

 

[JimGroves]

I just tested out the Headband of Vast Intelligence.. You have it working just fine in V2.0.

Again, I just concerned that we might go "backwards". Sorry.

 

[Leonal]

Since I couldn't figure out what the book intended for changes to intelligence back when I was initially setting up the files, I left the changing intelligence rules using the SRD mechanics, figuring the question would eventually be answered in a FAQ.

Thanks, I'll get this changed.

Yeah, I thought that was the issue. I also had some trouble finding a clear answer to it.

And yes, as JimmyOlsen pointed out, headbands of vast intelligence work as they should. (according to skills, but not languages. See two posts below.)


Thanks again for a great program.

 

[JimGroves]

And yes, headbands of vast intelligence work as they should.

Very Passive.

 

[Leonal]

Actually, upon further investigation the Headband does not seem to work properly regarding languages.

Equipping a headband makes Hero Lab think you should have extra languages according to the bonus given, but bonus languages due to a given intelligence bonus only happen on character creation AFAIK.

(Whether a Headband of Vast Intelligence which is specified as giving ranks in linguistics will give the character a new language on each level, however, is unclear since the skill specifies that a language is learned when you put a rank into this skill, and not just given a rank).

 

[Mathias]

The headbands handle languages by adding extra slots because languages have to be added by bootstrapping them (skills are handled by modifying a skill that's already present). Setting up language bootstraps could only be handled by A) making a headband with the language(s) already fixed (P.S. If you're giving out a specific headband as treasure, you may want to make that custom headband in the editor for your players), or B) Offering a table on the magic items list that would let you select the language, and then somehow tie the languages to the specific headband that offered it (for example, what happens if you own one headband +2: Elven and another headband +2: Dwarven).

So, there's no good way of handling languages granted by something other than a race or one of the general language slots on the personal tab. So I just went with the simple method and added the slots.

 

[Leonal]

Hmm, what I meant to say was that I can't find anywhere that says you get any additional languages by wearing a headband, since languages granted by int bonus are only given at first level.
I don't think you don't get a new language by raising your int through leveling or any other means.

 

[Vrischika111]

it seems that permanent ability increase gives backwards benefits (which was not the case in 3.5).
While JJ does not explicitely mention "language" he says all "other benefits"
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Intelligence-Int-

 

[Arkamit]

The bonus languages are specifically called out to only happen at the start of the game not per later increases.
While it is true that James Jacobs, while he is clarifying about skill ranks – supporting the text as written in the rulebook and by paizos own writers, choice of saying that “All bonuses are retroactive” might be interpreted quite liberally I would not without further errata/corrections use this to supersede what is written in the rulebook and published adventures.
If they meant to say that what they themselves have written in the rulebook, on page for headband of vast intelligence and in many adventure paths are incorrect - it would stand to reason that they would include it in the errata.

Otherwise I would cautioun to interpret a clarification (which is what he is trying to do about why/how of skill ranks per level) as a correction of the rulebook (which is what it would be if later int bonuses effected languages). His choice of “All bonuses are retroactive” might just as easily be interpreted somewhat more moderately to the clarification that “all per level benefits are retroactively effected”, which would fit perfectly with paizos own published material, instead of the correction that “STARTING bonuses” are retroactively affected - which is obviously not something paizo themselves are doing.
What paizo was aiming for was that per level boni should give "backwards benefit" - it has yet to be stated that they want to change STARTING stats.

While I am not disputing that it might be a good change, and that we might see an errata/word of god comment to this effect at a later date – as per the current rules this is not the case. Just check any published adventure or rulebook and find that while Headbands of Vast Intelligence grant X number of extra skills, that are listed in paizos own materials, it is never mentioned that they grant any languages.