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Simulacrum

L

lortondm

Well-known member
Are there any plans to create simulacrum functionality in the program?

Essentially, to use the spell you should be able to pick any monster or PC and then automatically halve its abilities.

So you could pick a solar but it would be a half-powered solar.

Or does anyone have any suggestions on how to use that spell to get a proper simulacrum of a creature into the program?
 
First, there would need to be a specific meaning to what the "half-powered" part means. Exactly how Simulacrum works is hotly debated in the threads about how abusable it is (on the Paizo boards).

At the moment, most of the adjudication is up to individual GMs, so there is no "official approach" for LoneWolf to implement (as far as I know; I haven't checked for updates on that particular issue in the last couple of months).
 
That's a pretty defeatist attitude. Lots of things in this game are debated. If we waited to do any automation of game tasks until after all relevant rules ferment was complete, no progress would ever made. I'll look up what the controversy's about, but the key text of the spell seems quite straightforward and it is is: "[The simulacrum] has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level."

So to turn that into logical steps:

(1) Pick a creature equal to or less than twice the caster's level;
(2) Half the creature's levels + HD;
(3) And then scale down hps, feats, skill points, and special abilities to those of a creature of that degree of power -- i.e., levels + HD.

There's a little finesse in step three in terms of special abilities scaling down. Scaling down DCs for abilities that impose saves wouldn't seem to be hard but the number of special abilities, especially spell-like abilities would involve some decisionmaking but -- you programmer types tell me -- maybe once a simulacrum template was applied as to special abilities a GM could be given the option to turn on or off a particular special ability based on their view of what halving special abilities mean. And in general the Bestiary has rules for scaling up or down monsters.

I'm not saying it should be a high priority or that it wouldn't involve some adjudication/choices to make work in the program. But it doesn't seem like an insurmountable problem. And it's a core spell that even just in its Paizo OGL form is about six or more years old.

Anyone else -- ever worked on a way to implement the spell in the program?
 
The problem is that HeroLab is an officially licensed tool for Pathfinder. It is required to stick to how Paizo defines things to work. The LoneWolf folks spend time trying to get the answers from Paizo for things so it can be "right".

That means that as long as Paizo doesn't say the method you described is the "proper" interpretation, LoneWolf is somewhat hamstrung.

Your step #3 is where most of the contention is. The "Sno-Cone Wish Machine" thread (among others) on the Paizo boards explains pretty well that some GMs give all the powers at half-caster-level.. and some try to remove powers that seem like they should only go with higher HD/levels. Those rules in the Bestiary you mentioned are cited by both groups as "proof" that their interpretation is correct. There is no consensus, and no official response. so there's no "right" way defined.

Until there is something in the Core Rulebook FAQ to expand on this, LoneWolf really can't do much.
 
Yes, as I tried to scale a creature down, it became a harder problem to solve and I created a whole set of house rules to deal with it. One of the things I will do is limit the caster to one simulacrum at a time and then build it separately and make the adjudications as I go. It takes a little while but it works without disturbing play balance in crazy ways. Sorry I was underestimating the challenges. Thanks.
 
lortondm said:
That's a pretty defeatist attitude. Lots of things in this game are debated. If we waited to do any automation of game tasks until after all relevant rules ferment was complete, no progress would ever made. I'll look up what the controversy's about, but the key text of the spell seems quite straightforward and it is is: "[The simulacrum] has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level."
Click to expand...

The problem is ... not everyone accepts "your obvious answer". as the proper way to run the spell. Paizo's text isn't holy writ, I'll alter it myself if I think what's down there is a campaign buster, and simulacrum as you interpret it, certainly is. And I'm not going to debate that here either... that's what the Paizo forums are for.
 
On reflection I've come a lot closer to your point of view both in terms of difficulty of operationalizing the spell as written and also in terms of the spell's effect on game balance. Apologies for jumping to conclusions before I'd done more thinking, LazarX.
 
lortondm said:
On reflection I've come a lot closer to your point of view both in terms of difficulty of operationalizing the spell as written and also in terms of the spell's effect on game balance. Apologies for jumping to conclusions before I'd done more thinking, LazarX.
Click to expand...


Accepted.
 
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