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Shields and Armour Save

W

WKCChampion

Well-known member
I've noticed something uncorrect about the shields:

it says that a shield adds +1 to Armour Save.

It should be explicitated that this obnus is valid in Close Combat ONLY.
Therefore, I'd represent Save when you have shiled, for example:

Sv: 6+/5+ to indicate that the 5+ bonus is valid only in HtH
 
Have u read the BRB ??

Would u please give a reference to the page in the BRB, where this rule is stated. Dont just throw these bugs left and right, document them !

Ank
 
damn I don't have the rulebbok here, I've borrwed it ... damn it...
Well if I don't remember badly, it shoudl be either in Hand to Hand Combat or in the Armour Types chpater.
Another idea is to have a look in the glossary, at the end of the book: I'm almost sure there's a definition of shield and it shows that the bonus is gained in HtH only.

Anyway, even if I don't remember exactly where it is istuatedi n the rulebook, I'm absolutely sure of this rule.
 
I have the BRB in front of me now ...

I have the BRB in front of me now, and in the section for Shooting (p. 64) it states, and I quote:
"Models that are wounded still have a chance to avoid damage if they are wearing armour or carrying a shield ...". Further more, still in the section for Shooting, an example is given (p. 64):
"For example: A warrior carrying a shield and wearing light armour has an armour saving throw of 5+ ...).
IMHO it would be ridiculous if the shield didnt offer some protection against shooting.

In the section for CC Saves (p. 70), it states:
"Combatants that are wounded have a chance to aviod suffering any damage if they are wearing armour, carrying shields or have a Ward Save. This is exactly the same as described for shooting, and the same rules apply."

The only bonus you get in CC is if you fight with Hand Weapon and Shield. This will give you and extra +1 to your Armour Save, because you can use your Hand Weapon to deflect blows.

If you have a BRB that states otherwise, please post it here.

Ank
 
"The only bonus you get in CC is if you fight with Hand Weapon and Shield. This will give you and extra +1 to your Armour Save, because you can use your Hand Weapon to deflect blows. "

Yes, probably it's this part that is misleading. I'm in Italian, so my rulebook is the Italian one. This part may have been transalated badly, herefore this may mislead....
 
... and still this part is not clear. In the Italian rulebook I remember that it said that u get the +1 of the shiled in HtH only, and here it seems that if a unit is armed with hand-weapon and shiled... in HtH an additional +1 is given????
 
In that case the Italian edition of the BRB is very badly translated. As you can see from the quotes given above, the english edition is quite clear on this.
You will get +1 Armour Save in the Shotting and CC phases, if you carry a shield.

Ank
 
Here's the basics...If you have a shield you get a +1 to armor in close combat or against shooting...If you are in Close combat and are using a Hand Weapon you gain an additional +1 to your armor...it boils down to;

Shooting: 6+ save
Close Combat with Two Handed Weapon (greatweapon): None
Close Combat with Two Hand Weapons: None
Close Combat with Hand Weapon: 5+ save
Close Combat with any other weapon (spear): 6+ save

Single Hand Weapons: Spear, Morning Star
Two Hand Weapons: Great Weapon, Flail, Halberd

Keep in mind a Pistol Used alone counts as a Hand Weapon...
 
Keep in mind a Pistol Used alone counts as a Hand Weapon...
Click to expand...
But you only get a +1 to your armour save if you fight in CC with a hand weapon AND shield, so a pistol on its own, does not give you a +1, right ?
Nor does 2 hand weapons give you +2 to your Armour Save.

Ank
 
Frankly, here in Italy that rule of the extra +1 is never respected. Here I've always played torunaments my way....

Anyway, if the exact rule is the one you stated, I kindly ask Robert to add athe notation I previously write for Arm. Save, e.g.: 6+/5+
 
Well, it should be respected, because it is in the rules.

In my experience it is quite rare that you use the additional +1 rule for Hand Weapon and Shield, since most troops and characters employ weapons other than Hand Weapons. And in order to not clutter the roster with info, maybe you, Robert, could just add it as an Option Footnote for the Hand Weapon.

Ank
 
Ok it's official... I've mailed GW Italy.
Th erules r the following:

the Shield gives an additional + 1 to Armour Save, exactly as Light Armour does.

No other extra nor penalties from it.

Just a +1 and a "busy" hand. No other further rules. NONE.
 
first of all I'll remind everyone (and in case you didn't realize) if your unit comes equipt with a hand weapon and either upgrades or comes with a shield that is always an option even if you upgrade to another weapon (halberd, spear, etc)...You choose at the begining of combat what weapon selection you want to use...Men at Arms for example come withHand Weapon, Shield, and Halberd so you could choose to use a Halberd and get +1 to Strength and a 6+ save (only light armor) or Hand Weapon and Shield giving you no Str bonus and a 4+ save (+1 Armor, +1 Shield, +1 HW/S)...So if you are facing something with a high toughness but low Str you choose Halberd for the extra punch, if facing something which negates armor then go for the extra save (unless of course it's Str 6 and negates all of your armor anyway)...

The weapon you choose stays with you until combat ends through a unit being destroyed or broken...The exception to these rules are the lance and spear for cav units only...

AnkStyer said:
But you only get a +1 to your armour save if you fight in CC with a hand weapon AND shield, so a pistol on its own, does not give you a +1, right ?
Nor does 2 hand weapons give you +2 to your Armour Save.
Click to expand...

According to BRB p.91 a pistol acts as a hand weapon...However as anyone carrying a pistol will also have a hand weapon it generally counts as a second hand weapon conferring +1 attack but keeps you from using a shield at all...If you're using 2 hand weapons you also don't get any benefit from a shield...basically you need one hand free to use the shield to get any benefit...If your other hand has a hand weapon (instead of a spear or morning star) then you get an additional +1 (in effect a +2)...

Theoretically if a pistol is your only weapon then you would get the +2 bonus with a shield...but as this never happens it doesn't count...
Also note that a Choppa does not count as a Hand Weapon so does not confer the additional bonus (just a basic +1) with a shield...Also you lose the Str. benefit from a Choppa since there's something in the other hand...It's funny but Gobbos get a +2 since they use Hand Weapons...Gobbos are actually more skilled fighters then Orcs by this explanation...
 
you're wrong!
Read above: if u have hand weapon and hsield, NO ADDITIONAL +1!

To resolve rthe question, I've mailed GW Italia... and they replied this.
The part of the book Ank was referring to is just an example it's carrying.
 
When I get back from work this afternoon, the first thing I will do is to look in the BRB and post the paragraph where it states that you DO get an additional +1 to your Armour Save if you fight in CC with Hand Weapon and Shield.
This is becoming a ridiculous discussion, since in most of the civilised world there has never been any debate over this. It is very clearly stated in the BRB (the english edition, at least), and if the Italian edition says something which contradicts the English edition, then you should find the translater and fight him with a Hand Weapon and Shield, then he will learn it the hard way ... :D

Ank
 
deathlynx said:
The weapon you choose stays with you until combat ends through a unit being destroyed or broken...The exception to these rules are the lance and spear for cav units only...
Click to expand...
What about a commander on a Great Eagle with a Lance?
Does he get +2 Strength on the charge and then +1 Armour Save in subsequent rounds of that combat if he switches to his Hand Weapon?
In this context, does the Eagle Count as cav?

Ank
 
WKCChampion said:
you're wrong!
Read above: if u have hand weapon and hsield, NO ADDITIONAL +1!
Click to expand...
Ok...BRB p. 88 under weapons, section titled "Fighting With A Hand Weapon And Shield";
"If a warrior on foot fights with a hand weapon and shield, he may increase his armor save by a further +1 in close combat. Eg, if he has a shield and light armor and a sword, his armor save is increased from 5+ to 4+ when fighting in close combat. This only applies in close combat, not against wounds suffered from shooting, magic, or other means."

AnkStyer said:
What about a commander on a Great Eagle with a Lance?
Does he get +2 Strength on the charge and then +1 Armour Save in subsequent rounds of that combat if he switches to his Hand Weapon?
In this context, does the Eagle Count as cav?
Click to expand...
These weapons provide the Str. bonus in the first round and an armor save in every round (including the first)...Oh, don't forget that an Eagle, as a non-standard mount, doesn't provide any bonus to Armor (unless of course there is an explicit exception such as in the Pegasus Knight rules)...

Technically if you choose to use a lance then that is the weapon you're using throughout the combat...But as it is a single hand weapon you can still use your shield...The result is that a Lance (or Mounted Spear) acts like a Hand weapon after the first round of combat...But since mounted models don't get any benefits from Hand Weapons it doesn't really matter that they're not classified as such...

Oh, also remember that if a character has a magic weapon then they must choose to use that in combat...Even if you've upgraded them with a great weapon or lance (Bretonians specifically make an exception for the lance in the first round of combat)...Also a magical Hand Weapon or Shield negates the extra bonuses that a normal version would provide, so no HW/S armor bonus and no Second Hand Weapon bonus...Unless of course the item (only happens on shields currently) states "counts as a normal shield"...Quite a few of the Chaos shields state this so I'd suggest using them on a character on foot with a non-magical hand weapon...Best of both worlds...
 
just a note, the gw 'rules boyz' are wrong as often as they are right...

i will add the note of the extra bonus to the datafiles.
 
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