Sharing content that you don't own

[Mystic Lemur]

I don't know how much you can or care to comment about this, but how will content sharing work if you don't own the IP that it's based on? For example, will we be allowed to share the Golarion we've entered ourselves with other users, or do we only have access to the pre-packaged Golarion content that comes straight from Paizo? If I put in older adventures, like say TSR adventures that may or may not still be available from WotC depending on their mood swings, would I be able to share that with others? Sell it to others? Share the adventure framework only without the content?

What about conversions? If I convert Rise of the Runelords to 4e, am I allowed to share my conversion? Or would there be a way to share only the converted content and the framework, but not the adventure details?

Will there be a way to prove that we own the source material, say the hardcover Rise of the Runelords, so that we could only share our content with other people who own the source material?

Am I trying to make this a bigger issue than it probably will be? Should I just stop worrying and get back to enjoying this amazing product? (Hey, I had to throw and easy question in there somewhere.) Wasn't sure if this might count as a feature request. Apologies if wrong forum.

 

[mirtos]

Its certainly an interesting topic. One could argue that LoneWolf is nothing more than a delivery system, a wordpress.com, for example, and wordpress isnt responsibilie for the content of all the sites....

on the other hand, maybe a more filesharing model is closer. If its the former, LW isnt responsible. If its the latter, then they might need to police content.

I used to be involved in a PlayByPost gaming board, and it was a question we had to be careful ourselves when we were dealing other peoples doing things.

 

[Farling]

Part of this topic has come up before somewhere.

Generally you should be able to enter the information for your own personal use, but it is unlikely that you will be able to sell it to others since the IP doesn't belong to you.

I suspect it is similar to how the packages, .hl and .user files are shared for HeroLab.

 

[Chemlak]

Farling is basically right. You can use it for yourself and your players, but you can't give an IP you don't own to anyone else, free or paid for, without infringing.

So, no putting RotRL that you've input and/or converted up on the content sharing site, but you're free to use it in your own games.

 

[Mystic Lemur]

So will there be a way to share realms for free like users of Hero Lab can share custom data files that contain copyrighted material?

Edit: And I'm still wondering if it's possible to share the framework/outline of a realm without sharing the information.

 

[Silveras]

So will there be a way to share realms for free like users of Hero Lab can share custom data files that contain copyrighted material?

Edit: And I'm still wondering if it's possible to share the framework/outline of a realm without sharing the information.

The Repository/Marketplace has been described as a way for users to share realms of their own creation, for free, or to charge a price.

If you have an empty Realm (no data) and just want to share "how you organize your Realms", that's probably perfectly OK to give away.

The HL Community repositories operate under the various licenses available. I don't know of any that are violating IP specifically, but it is possible that some are, and could be challenged on that. That's an area that LoneWolf does not want to put themselves into the middle of, so the Marketplace/Repository needs to have safeguards to prevent people from posting material that violates the IP of publishers. This was mentioned in passing during one of the Kickstarter updates, but I don't recall seeing any specifics since then.. most likely, we will see more when the Repository/Marketplace nears release.

There is a "Community Use Policy" from Paizo that governs Golarion-specific IP content, for example. d20PFSRD had to re-name a good deal of content when they became a commercial site because the names of specific placed were "ok" under the Community Use Policy, but are not ok for commercial sites to use.

The biggest difference I see is this: HeroLab is a tool focused on the mechanics, which are largely governed (for Pathfinder, anyway) by the OGL. As long as the HeroLab file do not contain large amounts of the story information, they are ok under the Community Use Policy. Some of them may be unknowingly violating that if they put too much "plot" into the entry, but that's something that remains to be seen. RealmWorks, on the other hand, is mostly plot and background. Almost everything you would put into a RealmWorls Realm is not open content. Even under the Community Use Policy, what goes into RealmWorks is largely off-limits for re-distribution if it came from an AP or other published work. And so there's much more concern about sharing Realms than there is Portfolios or even User files.

 

[rob]

@Farling, @Chemlak, and @Silveras all have things basically correct. Thanks guys!

Just to make it official...

You will be able to share or sell any content that you create yourself, since you own it. You will only be able to share or sell content that you don't create yourself if you have a license from the owner to do so.

This means that you CAN share or sell most of the content from the Pathfinder Core Rulebook if you want, as that content is OGL and can be used by anybody under that license. However, you CANNOT share or sell Pathfinder Adventure Paths, Pathfinder Campaign Setting books, old TSR adventures, or the like without first securing a license to do so from the IP owner.

With Hero Lab, we have a license with Paizo to incorporate everything they publish for Pathfinder. We pay them a royalty for that privilege. For Realm Works, we already have a license in place with Paizo for all the rulebooks, but Paizo is much more cautious with their non-OGL material, so we're still working to secure a license for the modules, adventures, and setting material.

There's one critical distinction between the user community data files for Hero Lab and anything through Realm Works. With the data files, it is done entirely by users, hosted by users, and free of charge. All Hero Lab does is provide a pointer to the files. As such, the worst that can happen is that the user community can be asked to stop and we can be asked to stop providing the pointer - assuming they are violating someone's IP in the first place. With Realm Works, all the material will be delivered directly through Realm Works. As such, we are completely on the hook and will need to take down content if someone attempts to share material for which they don't own the rights. If we don't act appropriately, then it's possible we could be found complicit. This will work just like every other major website on the internet, with DMCA takedown notices and the like. You'll find details about all of this within the Terms of Use. None of this will be an issue unless someone tries to share or make money off of material they don't own. I'm sure someone will try it at some point, so we'll need to take their stuff down once it's pointed out to us. But I don't expect it to be a big problem.

Now for one important clarification to the above. The definition of "sharing" material above has NOTHING to do with revealing material to your players. When you purchase RPG material, it's EXPECTED that you will reveal that information to your players, so publishers won't cry foul about that - they have no basis for even doing so. However, the moment you share material with another GM, that's when you need to either own the material you're sharing or have a license to do so.

Hope that all makes sense!

 

[Mystic Lemur]

Thanks for the detailed post, Rob. That does answer most of my questions. The last lingering ones are:

-If I create a conversion to another game system (my original work) of a previously existing adventure (that I do not hold the license to), would that be considered my own derivative work that I could freely share with others? This is probably too close to legal advice to get a useful answer, but I thought I'd give it a shot

-Will there be a way to selectively share pieces of a realm, that way copyrighted material could be excised out?

 

[mirtos]

I think I have an answer to your first question. Not from a realms works standpoint, but about copyright and IP. If the derivative is about rules only, then use, that's a derivative work. If its about plot and story, no, the original copyright owner still has the IP on that. For example, if you create your own game system with 100% your own rules, you could not have Elminster and the characters and lands from Ed Greenwood's forgotten realms, as that would be a violation of his copyright and IP. I'm not a lawyer, but I do have multiple writer and author friends and have been in discussions with some of them regarding similar questions. So I can't stand by this with a legal backing, but I'm fairly sure I'm correct in this regard.

 

[rob]

-If I create a conversion to another game system (my original work) of a previously existing adventure (that I do not hold the license to), would that be considered my own derivative work that I could freely share with others? This is probably too close to legal advice to get a useful answer, but I thought I'd give it a shot

If we're talking an adventure, then we're NOT talking about rules mechanics, so the answer is "No, your derivative work is derivative of an IP owned by someone else and is subject to their approval/license to share". Rules are governed by patent law, while creative content is governed by copyright law. Copyright is inherently granted to the creator, even if it's not officially registered with the USPTO. Patents must be explicitly filed and prosecuted, and almost nobody tries to patent game rules.

-Will there be a way to selectively share pieces of a realm, that way copyrighted material could be excised out?

Initially, the filtering level will likely be at the topic level. For what it sounds like you're trying to achieve, you'll need to selectively include/exclude individual snippets. That's on the long-term plan, but I don't expect it to be part of the short-term releases (read: this year).

 

[Mystic Lemur]

Thanks, both to mirtos and rob. That handles all of my questions.

 

[Silveras]

I think I've said this before, but I also think it bears repeating:

RealmWorks is a new medium for publishing, but it is still bound by the laws that govern old media. RealmWorks will make it easier for individuals to become electronic publishers, but it will also make it easier for eager individuals to get themselves into trouble by publishing or attempting to publish materials they don't own. Before sharing anything that is not 100% your own creation, make sure you see a lawyer. And, before publishing anything that IS 100% your own creation, see a lawyer anyway (to protect your rights).

 

[mirtos]

Agreed. When in doubt, assume its not your right. There's also reality too. If I write a fan fic based on Drizzt, and just publishing he web, then I might not get in trouble. On the other hand, someone put out a free almanac of the world of Harry potter, made no money, and was sued and told to take it down. It all depends on the author, and how they feel about it. So you never know. Better safe than sorry.unless its Star Wars, then just assume Lucas will come after you.

 

[Avi]

Agreed. unless its Star Wars, then just assume Lucas will come after you.

Disney - the mouse will get you...