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Questions for a new game system

  • Thread starter Thread starter eric at landesfamily.com
  • Start date Start date
E

eric at landesfamily.com

Guest
Code: 
Okay, I'm thinking about making data files for Might of Arms.  (Historical 
Ancient/Medieval ruleset)  I don't think anyone's done this yet.

My brain has been so focused on how AB works for DBM, that I haven't really 
looked at much else.  So, I have some quesitons.

Might of Arms works like this:

An army list has between about 5 and 15 troop types listed.  They list type 
of troop, morale class, points per stand, and number of stands 
allowed.  Many of these troops will have up/downgrade options to add a 
missile weapon or change morale class. There's also a troop ratio for each 
list.  (infantry must outnumber mounted, etc.)

When you put your army together, you purchase stands, organize them into 
units, and buy leaders.  Stands cost as listed, each unit costs 15 points, 
and each leader cost 75 points if mounted, 60 if not.

So, I have the following questions:

How do I put in the 15 points/unit cost?  A special item?
Some armies allow you to add missile weapons to part of a unit.  How do I 
handle that and keep them in the same unit?
If all the stands in a unit have a non-javelin missile weapon, the cost per 
stand is reduced by 2.  How should I approach that?

All for now... I'm sure I'll come up with more.

Eric



Eric Landes
[email]eric@landesfamily.com[/email] ([email]eric@landesfamily.com[/email])
[url=http://www.landesfamily.com]http://www.landesfamily.com[/url]
Page me online : [url=http://wwp.icq.com/497082]http://wwp.icq.com/497082[/url]

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Code: 
One fine day in the middle of the night, Eric Landes
[email]eric@landesfamily.com[/email] ([email]eric@landesfamily.com[/email]) got up to write:

>An army list has between about 5 and 15 troop types listed.  They list type 
>of troop, morale class, points per stand, and number of stands 
>allowed.  Many of these troops will have up/downgrade options to add a 
>missile weapon or change morale class. 

Should be easy enough to do with options.

>There's also a troop ratio for each 
>list.  (infantry must outnumber mounted, etc.)

trat: race attribute.

>When you put your army together, you purchase stands, organize them into 
>units, and buy leaders.  Stands cost as listed, each unit costs 15 points, 
>and each leader cost 75 points if mounted, 60 if not.
>
>So, I have the following questions:
>
>How do I put in the 15 points/unit cost?  A special item?

Um, the 'unit cost' box? Or am I missing something obvious?

>Some armies allow you to add missile weapons to part of a unit.  How do I 
>handle that and keep them in the same unit?

You could use rang: (option attribute) to determine how many missile
weapons you have, with must: (unit external) to make sure you didn't
have too many. There are numerous examples of this in the 40K files.

>If all the stands in a unit have a non-javelin missile weapon, the cost per 
>stand is reduced by 2.  How should I approach that?

Hmm... I can see a way of doing this, but it might be impractical. Two
questions:

Can you vary the number of stands in a unit?
If so, what are the typical minimum / maximum number of stands?

-- 
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Code: 
At 12:48 PM 3/2/00 -0800, you wrote:

>Okay, I'm thinking about making data files for Might of Arms.  (Historical
>Ancient/Medieval ruleset)  I don't think anyone's done this yet.
Never even HEARD of it before, so I think you're safe. :-)

>My brain has been so focused on how AB works for DBM, that I haven't really
>looked at much else.  So, I have some quesitons.
>
>Might of Arms works like this:
>
>An army list has between about 5 and 15 troop types listed.  They list type
>of troop, morale class, points per stand, and number of stands
>allowed.  Many of these troops will have up/downgrade options to add a
>missile weapon or change morale class. There's also a troop ratio for each
>list.  (infantry must outnumber mounted, etc.)
>
>When you put your army together, you purchase stands, organize them into
>units, and buy leaders.  Stands cost as listed, each unit costs 15 points,
>and each leader cost 75 points if mounted, 60 if not.
>
>So, I have the following questions:
>
>How do I put in the 15 points/unit cost?  A special item?
Hmmm. I don't think a special item is the right solution, but I might be 
wrong. If all stands in a unit are the same, then you would probably do 
best to use an option with the "cost:single" attribute. If the stands can 
be varied for a unit, then I suggest creating a separate unit record for 
them and use the leader/follower mechanism to associate various stands to a 
single unit. This would be very similar to the model you are used to with DBM.

>Some armies allow you to add missile weapons to part of a unit.  How do I
>handle that and keep them in the same unit?
There are two good solutions here. Option 1 is to create a child unit that 
can have alternate equipment. You'll find an example of this in the Xamples 
race in the tutorial files. You can also use the "rept" attribute if there 
can be various combinations of equipment. An example of this is also in the 
tutorial files.
Option 2 is to use the "rang" attribute. This is the approach used 
throughout the 40K data files, where you'll find extensive examples.

>If all the stands in a unit have a non-javelin missile weapon, the cost per
>stand is reduced by 2.  How should I approach that?
Easiest solution here is to assign each unit the type "NonJavelin" (or some 
such). Make sure this is done via the "type" attribute and NOT the basic 
type name. Then, as part of the javelin weapon option, use "dtyp" to delete 
this type from the unit. Lastly, attach a hidden option to the unit with a 
cost of -2. Use the "utyp" attribute on the option to have it only be valid 
when the type is assigned to the unit.

Be careful on the above, since the sequence of options is important. IOW, 
make sure that the weapon options as sorted BEFORE the hidden option (via 
the option categories you assign).

Hope this helps,
Rob

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com ([email]rob@wolflair.com[/email]))                                 (650) 726-9689
Lone Wolf Development                                      [url]www.wolflair.com[/url]
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Code: 
At 03:53 PM 3/2/2000, you wrote:
>One fine day in the middle of the night, Eric Landes
>eric@landesfamily.com ([email]eric@landesfamily.com[/email]) got up to write:
>
> >An army list has between about 5 and 15 troop types listed.  They list type
> >of troop, morale class, points per stand, and number of stands
> >allowed.  Many of these troops will have up/downgrade options to add a
> >missile weapon or change morale class.
>
>Should be easy enough to do with options.

Yep, that's not a problem.


> >There's also a troop ratio for each
> >list.  (infantry must outnumber mounted, etc.)
>
>rat: race attribute.

Yup.


> >When you put your army together, you purchase stands, organize them into
> >units, and buy leaders.  Stands cost as listed, each unit costs 15 points,
> >and each leader cost 75 points if mounted, 60 if not.
> >
> >So, I have the following questions:
> >
> >How do I put in the 15 points/unit cost?  A special item?
>
>Um, the 'unit cost' box? Or am I missing something obvious?

That would be where the cost/stand would go.  A unit consists of some 
indeterminate number of stands.  (typically 3, 4, or 6, but is completely 
up to the player.)  The 15 point cost is for each group of stands to 
signify command/control overhead.


> >Some armies allow you to add missile weapons to part of a unit.  How do I
> >handle that and keep them in the same unit?
>
>You could use rang: (option attribute) to determine how many missile
>weapons you have, with must: (unit external) to make sure you didn't
>have too many. There are numerous examples of this in the 40K files.

I'll look into that.


> >If all the stands in a unit have a non-javelin missile weapon, the cost per
> >stand is reduced by 2.  How should I approach that?
>
>Hmm... I can see a way of doing this, but it might be impractical. Two
>questions:
>
>Can you vary the number of stands in a unit?

Yes.

>If so, what are the typical minimum / maximum number of stands?

Typical minimum is 2, typical max is 8, though some dark-age hairy types 
might go as high as 12.  There is no rules-imposed minimum or maximum.

E
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Code: 
One fine day in the middle of the night, Eric Landes
[email]eric@landesfamily.com[/email] ([email]eric@landesfamily.com[/email]) got up to write:

>> >How do I put in the 15 points/unit cost?  A special item?
>>
>>Um, the 'unit cost' box? Or am I missing something obvious?
>
>That would be where the cost/stand would go.  A unit consists of some 
>indeterminate number of stands.  (typically 3, 4, or 6, but is completely 
>up to the player.)  The 15 point cost is for each group of stands to 
>signify command/control overhead.

Oh, right. Like Rob said, a hidden option that costs 15 points with the
cost:single attribute.

>> >If all the stands in a unit have a non-javelin missile weapon, the cost per
>> >stand is reduced by 2.  How should I approach that?

OK, I can see two ways to do it: An easy, but possibly inconvenient way,
and a difficult, but transparent, way. The easy way:

Have an hidden option that subtracts two points from the cost of every
stand (i.e., cost of -2, no special things).

Have another option that uses rang:, which tracks how many stands
*don't* have Javelins. Give it the over:firstOption=delete attribute.

Thus, when everybody doesn't have javelins (i.e., when nobody has them)
the cost per stand is reduced by 2. As soon as one, or more, javelins
are selected, the 'decrease cost by 2' option is deleted and the cost of
the unit increases by 2 per stand.

Is this OK? If not, here's the difficult way:

Have an extra hidden stat specified, call it NoJav. Make it have a
minimum value of -1, and a maximum value of 0. Yes, -1 and 0.
Create X options, where X is the maximum number of stands in a unit.
Each should cost nothing, and have these attributes:

usiz:max=Xmin=X
base:NoJav=X-1

(don't actually have X-1, but just, e.g. if X was 4, you'd put 3.)

In the Javelin option, you'd have:

rang:0-whatever
stat:NoJav-1

In yet another option, you'd have:

cost:stat@NoJav ([email]stat@nojav[/email])*2

This would, when the unit had the maximum number of Javelins they were
allowed, subtract 2 from the cost of each stand. I think this should
work. :)

The problem with this is that you'd need to give *every unit* the
options:

JavSize1
JavSize2
JavSize3
...
JavSizewhatever
etc

Good news: There's an attribute in Army Builder 2 that lets you do this
without actually adding them to the unit. If you're serious about doing
files for it, you might be able to bribe Rob to put you on the beta
testers list :)

-- 
'Not Colin' McAlister        | License to Skrill
Email: [email]demandred@skrill.org[/email] ([email]demandred@skrill.org[/email])  | Visit [url=http://www.skrill.org/]http://www.skrill.org/[/url] today!
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Code: 
At 07:56 PM 3/3/2000 +0000, you wrote:
>One fine day in the middle of the night, Eric Landes
>eric@landesfamily.com ([email]eric@landesfamily.com[/email]) got up to write:
>
> >> >How do I put in the 15 points/unit cost?  A special item?
> >>
> >>Um, the 'unit cost' box? Or am I missing something obvious?
> >
> >That would be where the cost/stand would go.  A unit consists of some
> >indeterminate number of stands.  (typically 3, 4, or 6, but is completely
> >up to the player.)  The 15 point cost is for each group of stands to
> >signify command/control overhead.
>
>Oh, right. Like Rob said, a hidden option that costs 15 points with the
>cost:single attribute.

That looks like the best way to do it, then.


>Good news: There's an attribute in Army Builder 2 that lets you do this
>without actually adding them to the unit. If you're serious about doing
>files for it, you might be able to bribe Rob to put you on the beta
>testers list :)

Already am.  :)  I'll look into the new method.  I thought I'd ask here, as 
it wasn't 2.0 specific stuff I was looking at, just general help.

Thanks for the help!

Eric
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Code: 
One fine day in the middle of the night, Rob Bowes [email]rob@wolflair.com[/email] ([email]rob@wolflair.com[/email])
got up to write:

>>       Good news: There's an attribute in Army
>>       Builder 2 that lets you do this
>>       without actually adding them to the unit. If you're serious 
>>       about doing
>>       files for it, you might be able to bribe Rob to put you on the 
>>       beta
>>       testers list :)
>    Do NOT use this method!!! 

:O

>As outlined in the Beta docs, the new 
>    method that allows this is a bit expensive when you load data 
>    files. If you did this for dozens of options in a large set of data 
>    files, it would take a LOT longer to load those files. The new 
>    mechanism in V2 is not intended to be used indiscriminately - it is 
>    intended as a convenience feature for those nasty situations where 
>    there is just no other solution. Please use it with discretion.
>
>    If I can figure out a more efficient way of handling the feature, 
>    then maybe it will be usable on a widespread basis. But not at the 
>    present time.

How more or less efficient would it be than, e.g., just adding the links
to each record?

-- 
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Email: [email]demandred@skrill.org[/email] ([email]demandred@skrill.org[/email])  | Visit [url=http://www.skrill.org/]http://www.skrill.org/[/url] today!
-----------------------------+------------------------------------
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Code: 
At 06:06 AM 3/4/2000 , 'Not Colin' McAlister & The Skrills wrote:
>One fine day in the middle of the night, Rob Bowes [email]rob@wolflair.com[/email] ([email]rob@wolflair.com[/email])
>got up to write:
>
> >>       Good news: There's an attribute in Army
> >>       Builder 2 that lets you do this
> >>       without actually adding them to the unit. If you're serious
> >>       about doing
> >>       files for it, you might be able to bribe Rob to put you on the
> >>       beta
> >>       testers list :)
> >    Do NOT use this method!!!

Okay... I think I got this figured out.  Rob, the hidden option of 
cost:single works wonderfully.

For the "-2 per non-skirmish infantry model if 2/3 or more of the unit has 
non-javelin missile weapons" part, I'll (for now) have two separate sets of 
missile weapon options.  If the unit does not allow mixed weapon types (the 
norm) then I'll use options that cost 2 less per stand.  If the unit DOES 
allow mixed types, I'll have a different option that costs 2 more.  The 
only part I haven't figured out yet is how to get that 2pt discount for 
that < 1/3 part of the unit that DOESN'T have missile weapons but still 
gets the discount.

This is a clear application of the 80/20 rule.  In this case, it's more 
like 95/5.

Thanks guys!

Rob, enjoy your trip if you haven't already left.  I AM going to New 
Zealand someday...

Eric


Eric Landes
[email]eric@landesfamily.com[/email] ([email]eric@landesfamily.com[/email])
[url=http://www.landesfamily.com]http://www.landesfamily.com[/url]
Page me online : [url=http://wwp.icq.com/497082]http://wwp.icq.com/497082[/url]

MULT TE PASS
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Code: 
One fine day in the middle of the night, Rob Bowes [email]rob@wolflair.com[/email] ([email]rob@wolflair.com[/email])
got up to write:

>>       How more or less efficient would it be
>>       than, e.g., just adding the links
>>       to each record?
>    The efficiency issue is with how much work it is to cycle through 
>    and add the option to all units. Since the code has to do a 
>    comprehensive test to ensure that options are duplicated on units 
>    (the underlying engine makes this assumption), that's a very 
>    expensive process. The cost is only incurred when the files are 
>    loaded, but for large data files with extensive use of this 
>    feature, I could easily see this taking an extra MINUTE (or 
>    possibly 3) on many computers. 

Probably an extra 5 on my P100 :)

>I don't think this is very appealing 
>    to most users. :-)
>
>    I have an idea of how to speed up the process, but it's unproven at 
>    this time. I won't know until I get back and have a chance to try 
>    it.

The better way would just be to create a dummy unit, and clone it's
links?

-- 
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Email: [email]demandred@skrill.org[/email] ([email]demandred@skrill.org[/email])  | Visit [url=http://www.skrill.org/]http://www.skrill.org/[/url] today!
-----------------------------+------------------------------------
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Code: 
eric landes [email]eri-@landesfamily.com[/email] wrote: 

original article:[url=http://www.egroups.com/group/armybuilder/?start=616]http://www.egroups.com/group/armybuilder/?start=616[/url]
> Okay, I'm thinking about making data files for Might of Arms. 
(Historical 
> Ancient/Medieval ruleset)  I don't think anyone's done this yet.
> 
> My brain has been so focused on how AB works for DBM, that I haven't
really 
> looked at much else.  So, I have some quesitons.
> 
> 
> Eric Landes
> [email]eric@landesfamily.com[/email] ([email]eric@landesfamily.com[/email])
> [url=http://www.landesfamily.com]http://www.landesfamily.com[/url]
> Page me online : [url=http://wwp.icq.com/497082]http://wwp.icq.com/497082[/url]
> 
> MULT TE PASS
> 

I believe we corresponded by e-mail last year about DBM.
>From this post I would guess that you have made some progress.
Could you let me know the state of play, and if you need me to help?
If you have any of the lists finished I would be grateful if you could
e-mail them to me at [email]davegilbert@usa.net[/email] ([email]davegilbert@usa.net[/email])

I have been working on some very unofficial warhammer lists, and have
started on warmaster. If you(or anyone else) are interested I could
send them back by return.

Dave.
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