PFS question, not HL-specific

[Azhrei]

There are a lot of people here who have more experience with the various Paizo source books than I have, so I beg your help.

In a game a couple days ago, two rogues in our party were invisible and moved to surround an enemy mage and take them out. The GM said my attack would be a regular attack, albeit with the benefits of being invisible, but that it wouldn't be a coup de grace since the target wasn't "helpless". That's fine, but it meant the three rounds spent getting into position were rather wasted since the rogue could've been more proactive against other combatants.

So here's my plan for next time. I will buy three small sacks with leather straps used to cinch the openings. While invisible, I'll pull the sack over the head of the target from behind them. It would be easy enough for the target to pull the sack off, so I want to put some kind of spring-loaded "fishing reel" on the leather strap that will suck up all of the slack. In an ideal world, it would work like a wind-up clock, where a key is used to coil the spring by turning it clockwise, and inserting the key and turning counterclockwise would release the ratchet. The device would be attached to the inside of the sack so that the target couldn't get to it easily.

Here's my problem: we're playing by PFS rules, so I cannot craft anything custom. Does anyone know of a device similar to the spring-loaded reel that I described that already exists in Golarion that would be acceptable under PFS rules? I know the concept exists, because of the spring-loaded wrist sheath, I just need something that will spool string or twine or thin leather strips...

Thanks in advance!

 

[Farling]

Try the technology guide, that's where all the "high tech" complicated that breaks the high-fantasy approach resides.

P.S. the sack over the head still doesn't render him "helpless", since isn't any of "paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy" - he's just got a sack over his head making him blind.

Now if one of you hit him with a paralysis effect, then the other could get in that coup de gras...

 

[Minous]

With PFS rules what you are trying to do just wont work. Best case you could get a monk with the grapple feat chain and get them pinned in 1-2 rounds which would render them helpless. Otherwise as a rogue get flanking and beat the crap out of them.

 

[Farling]

With PFS rules what you are trying to do just wont work. Best case you could get a monk with the grapple feat chain and get them pinned in 1-2 rounds which would render them helpless. Otherwise as a rogue get flanking and beat the crap out of them.

Or Great Invis if you can't get flanking
Or learn Feint.

 

[Azhrei]

Hey, thanks for the ideas! (Hm, looks like the technology guide is going to be stuff that’s not valid in PFS.)

We’re only 5th level right now, so fancy stuff isn’t readily available yet, although I am hoping to get some greater invisibility from our mage... I do have ideas for future use, though.

The bag over the head won’t allow coup de grace, you’re right, but it means they’re blind and I can sneak attack them!

(I was thinking of letting my familiar loose inside the bag as well. It’s a greensting scorpion. I’m just worried my little buddy could get hurt. )

 

[ErinRigh]

2 levels man, Gr Invis becomes available in 2 levels

 

[Farling]

Points in Bluff, get Improved Feint feat, then a move action give you your feint attempt and if successful then your immediately-following attack has them denied their bonus to dexterity (therefore sneak attack applies).

I've been doing that in our latest campaign, and is great fun!

Or carry a coin with Silence cast on it

 

[Azhrei]

Hm, two more levels...

I’m actually building an archer. My plan is to use obscuring mist and fogcutter lenses (or a Goz mask) and sneak attack from within the mist. I’ll be taking Deadly Range a few times so that I can get my range up to 60’, and the Snap Shot tree so that anyone who tries to approach me in the mist gets mowed down.

(If anyone knows of a more “personal” version of obscuring mist or similar, I’d like to hear. I know there’s an ability available on legendary weapons that provides a 5’ version of obscuring mist, but again, this is PFS... I just don’t want to get in the way of the rest of the party, if I can avoid it.)

I took a single level of wizard and the Magical Knack trait so I have CL3. I have vanish and feather fall that I keep prepared at all times, with a wand of gravity bow and a wand of shield.

Thanks again for all of the ideas. I checked out the Technology Guide for ideas, even though it isn’t PFS, but didn’t find anything helpful for my “bag over the head” technique.

 

[Minous]

Its expensive, but sniper googles + Goz mask = Sneak at OMG ranges.

Since your using UMD I would also recommend using the spell storing ioun stones. If you have an arcane caster in the party get a pearl of power (or equivalent) and have them cast Obscuring mist into it. Means you dont have to roll UMD.

 

[Azhrei]

Hm, I hadn’t seen sniper goggles, I’ll have to look into that. Thanks.

Nope, no UMD. That’s why I took a level of wizard. I am putting a few points into UMD for easy access to clerical wands, but I don’t expect to use UMD much for combat purposes...

 

[Minous]

Hm, I hadn’t seen sniper goggles, I’ll have to look into that. Thanks.

Nope, no UMD. That’s why I took a level of wizard. I am putting a few points into UMD for easy access to clerical wands, but I don’t expect to use UMD much for combat purposes...

Spell storing ioun stone is only 2k, and holds first level spells, does not require UMD, is only a standard action to activate and does not provoke AoO's. You can also get any spell caster to throw a spell in it ahead of time (including personal range spells), and can have multiple around you. My high level fighter has Shield, Bless Weapon, and Enlarge Person available to him at all times.

 

[Azhrei]

Thanks, good to know. Right now, 2k is way more $$$ than I have available, but those sound like nice items.

I think the most useful for my rogue might be silence and greater invisibility which are too high level to be stored in the stone; I could probably find other uses, though.

 

[LazarX]

There are a lot of people here who have more experience with the various Paizo source books than I have, so I beg your help.

In a game a couple days ago, two rogues in our party were invisible and moved to surround an enemy mage and take them out. The GM said my attack would be a regular attack, albeit with the benefits of being invisible, but that it wouldn't be a coup de grace since the target wasn't "helpless". That's fine, but it meant the three rounds spent getting into position were rather wasted since the rogue could've been more proactive against other combatants.

So here's my plan for next time. I will buy three small sacks with leather straps used to cinch the openings. While invisible, I'll pull the sack over the head of the target from behind them. It would be easy enough for the target to pull the sack off, so I want to put some kind of spring-loaded "fishing reel" on the leather strap that will suck up all of the slack. In an ideal world, it would work like a wind-up clock, where a key is used to coil the spring by turning it clockwise, and inserting the key and turning counterclockwise would release the ratchet. The device would be attached to the inside of the sack so that the target couldn't get to it easily.

Here's my problem: we're playing by PFS rules, so I cannot craft anything custom. Does anyone know of a device similar to the spring-loaded reel that I described that already exists in Golarion that would be acceptable under PFS rules? I know the concept exists, because of the spring-loaded wrist sheath, I just need something that will spool string or twine or thin leather strips...

Thanks in advance!

You don't get coup de gras, but you do get sneak attack from being invisible or flanking. For coup de grace to happen the target has to be absolutely helpless. i.e. unconcious, tied up, pinned. or paralyzed. and doing so is a full round action.

 

[Azhrei]

Yeah, the sneak attack is why I liked the idea of pulling a bag over their head.

As a side note, how do you think the GM should rule such an attempt? Should it be some kind of combat maneuver? Is it a melee touch attack to get the back over the victim’s head? If the attacker and target are the same size, should height differences be ignored?

I’m sure this will come up when we play again in a couple weeks...

 

[Minous]

If your following PFS style rules, it would probably be ruled as not something you could really do since there isnt a mechanic for it in RAW. However the closest thing I can think of would be a dirty tick (blinded)

 

[Farling]

If your following PFS style rules, it would probably be ruled as not something you could really do since there isnt a mechanic for it in RAW. However the closest thing I can think of would be a dirty tick (blinded)

Dirty Trick (Blinded) works quite well, since they could pull the bag off; or it is held in place by a person and then it becomes grappling.

 

[Azhrei]

Thanks; now I know what to research.

(Yes, holding the bag in place is why I want a leather cinch strap on it that is spring-loaded to pull the strap tight and keep it that way. That goes back to my first post, looking for equipment ideas. Aaaaannnnnnd, we've come full circle. Cool! )

 

[Azhrei]

So the Dirty Trick(blind) option isn’t very... realistic. If I pull the bag over someone’s head, they can take it off as a standard action. Since it takes me a standard action to apply it, this isn’t helpful.

I would need an accomplice. Then I could pull the bag over their head and the accomplice (who had a readied action) could tie the cinch strap in a knot. Now the target is unlikely to get the bag off (try to undo a knot you can’t see when you’ve been unexpectedly blinded while in combat!).

Or maybe I pull the bag over their head, then pull on the cinch strap to tighten it but don’t let go...? They’d have a hard time trying to shake me loose as anytime they struggled, it would pull the cinch strap even tighter. Assuming they don’t shake me loose, I could tie the knot myself on the next round.

I’m thinking that because I’m invisible when I start this process, I don’t provoke an AOO with the dirty trick maneuver. And since they don’t get their Dex against invisible attackers, it shouldn’t be too tough to beat their CMD. I hope.

Do you think the above would pass in a PFS game?

 

[Minous]

In a PFS the best your going to get is dirty trick. Making it stick is meant to be difficult, if it was easy it would be horribly over powered. Blinding a character has some massive effects once you actually start breaking things down. Keep in mind that PFS is extremely RAW and unforgiving. A lot of these ideas might work in a home brew, but PFS the best you can get is dirty trick blinded.

 

[LazarX]

So the Dirty Trick(blind) option isn’t very... realistic. If I pull the bag over someone’s head, they can take it off as a standard action. Since it takes me a standard action to apply it, this isn’t helpful.

I would need an accomplice. Then I could pull the bag over their head and the accomplice (who had a readied action) could tie the cinch strap in a knot. Now the target is unlikely to get the bag off (try to undo a knot you can’t see when you’ve been unexpectedly blinded while in combat!).

Or maybe I pull the bag over their head, then pull on the cinch strap to tighten it but don’t let go...? They’d have a hard time trying to shake me loose as anytime they struggled, it would pull the cinch strap even tighter. Assuming they don’t shake me loose, I could tie the knot myself on the next round.

I’m thinking that because I’m invisible when I start this process, I don’t provoke an AOO with the dirty trick maneuver. And since they don’t get their Dex against invisible attackers, it shouldn’t be too tough to beat their CMD. I hope.

Do you think the above would pass in a PFS game?

You would need to make the CMB check to counter their natural reaction to avoid being bagheaded. No bonuses for invisibility in this case. because the bag and you are very visible at this point.