Pathfinder beta: Starting cash, transaction log & customizable coins

[Colen]

Hi everyone,

We're planning to release our next Pathfinder update on Monday, but until then, I wanted to give everyone an early look at the features I mentioned in an earlier thread:

1. Starting cash is more robustly implemented and can now be changed on the Classes tab, after you pick a class for the character. Level 1 PCs can have Hero Lab roll their starting cash (using the correct value for their class), while NPCs and higher-level PCs can have their starting cash automatically set to the appropriate values. (You can still set your own custom starting cash values if you want, and we're not changing any starting cash values on existing characters.)
2. The Journal tab now shows a transaction log of the purchases and sales you've made, including the items that were bought and sold, and their cost.
3. You can now customize the names, values and weights of the coins used for purchasing, and define up to 4 additional coin types (if you wanted to rename "gold pieces" to "steel pieces", for example, or to define additional coin types entirely). See the Mechanics tab in the editor for more information.

You can grab the beta here. If you have time this weekend, please take it for a test drive and let us know if you run into any problems!

(Please note: after importing this beta, you'll be able to go back to the January Pathfinder release by installing it from Hero Lab's updates mechanism. However, if you save a character using the beta, then load it with the January Pathfinder release, any starting cash for that character will be lost.

We recommend not saving your characters with this beta if you're planning to go back to the January release afterwards. If you don't plan to go back to the January release, you shouldn't have any problems.)

 

[Azhrei]

[*]The Journal tab now shows a transaction log of the purchases and sales you've made, including the items that were bought and sold, and their cost.

Whoa, that's cool.

Are there other "easy" things being worked on? Like a red/green background when rolling a Nat1 or Nat20 combat roll on the iPad? It's the little things like this that make it so convenient.

Thanks for the heads-up!

 

[Silveras]

Starting Cash: The Starting Money display in the Classes tab seems to use a lot of the space there... and more of that is used for instructions (including "don't use this to add money after starting"). It seems to me that a one-time thing like starting cash should be a floating screen.. its footprint on the Classes tab reduced to a button "Set Starting Cash" or the like.

Purchase/Sale History: This is of little to no interest to me in general (though I expect people in organized play situations may find it very useful). That it requires me to continue to use the Journal as a means to enter transactions eliminates what little interest I had (I find the Journal mechanism clunky).

Renaming Coins: The process involved - creating a new Mechanic and possibly replacing an existing one - seems more convoluted and risky than is worth the benefits (at least to me).

Summary: Of the things I would find useful, it seems that the coin Gear Items solution provides me a much better result. With the Gear Items, I can create "Steel Piece" as a copy of Gold Piece far more easily than messing with a Mechanic. And I can accomplish tasks that are far more common that these enhancements don't address: allocation of money to specific containers, and transfer between characters in the portfolio.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Starting Cash: The Starting Money display in the Classes tab seems to use a lot of the space there... and more of that is used for instructions (including "don't use this to add money after starting"). It seems to me that a one-time thing like starting cash should be a floating screen.. its footprint on the Classes tab reduced to a button "Set Starting Cash" or the like.

I don't feel so strange now. My first reaction to this on the "Class" area and only after I selected a class was that it was TOO MUCH info in my face. I like minimalist UI stuff and this is just feels like too much info.

For something that I am going to use "one" time only for a character it is taking up allot of room in the UI. I much prefer the little existing area on the "Configure Your Hero" window. That is an area that is used pretty much rarely which makes sense as 99% of its settings you set one time.

By leaving this on the Class tab I guarantee you my players will constantly change there money using this section of HL instead of the journal.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Playing around I found something that displays incorrectly I think. I have a level 1 character and took the Rich Parents trait. The starting cash area changed to this:

A level 1 PC has no value on pg399 of the core rule book. The wording is assuming we have progressed past level 1 not taken a trait that set our starting cash.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Next issue. Same character as before with Rich Parents. I then added a 2nd level and it said my starting cash is 1000gp. The bad is it actually added 100gp to my character for just being 2nd level. I am sure my players WILL love getting free cash for leveling but as a DM not so much.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Another test case. This time created a level 3 Barbarian and I was correctly given 3,000gp for starting cash. I went and purchased some gear etc and was left with 391gp.

At this point I play the character and everything seems good but I then level up and add level 4 Barbarian. I was then listed as starting cash of 6,000gp and suddenly had 3,391gp to spend.

Its like a button needs to be added to say "I am finished character creation mode do not add free money anymore".

From playing with the journal it appears HL is assuming I will spend all my starting cash. If I got to the journal and subtract out -391 gp then the "starting cash" from the Classes tab goes away. But that is not realistic that a player spends 100% of there starting cash.

 

[Silveras]

Another test case. This time created a level 3 Barbarian and I was correctly given 3,000gp for starting cash. I went and purchased some gear etc and was left with 391gp.

At this point I play the character and everything seems good but I then level up and add level 4 Barbarian. I was then listed as starting cash of 6,000gp and suddenly had 3,391gp to spend.

Its like a button needs to be added to say "I am finished character creation mode do not add free money anymore".

From playing with the journal it appears HL is assuming I will spend all my starting cash. If I got to the journal and subtract out -391 gp then the "starting cash" from the Classes tab goes away. But that is not realistic that a player spends 100% of there starting cash.

re: "I am done" button
That's part of the thinking behind my suggestion of a "Set Starting Cash" button instead of the current display. It should be something that only changes deliberately, and is presumably a one-time thing for most characters (individual GMs may have different habits, though, so leaving the button made sense to me).

re: Spending all Starting Cash
Yeah, in my experience, ALL of my players have always kept at least a little of their cash for initial play .. inns, taverns, etc.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Played around with the Mechanics section for redoing cash names including renaming gp, changing its weight, and adding a new coin type. I tried to zero weight the gp by adding a zero and nothing changed. If I changed that to -1 then I was able to zero out the gp weight. Zero did work for the new coin type I added.

Overall I see this working pretty easily. I am pretty sure I can add adjustments in to do different changes to make it easier for non-editors to work with. Plus this solves a very nice problem I was looking at for Starfinder. Great job on this!

 

[ShadowChemosh]

re: "I am done" button

Thinking maybe the easy way to do this is if "any" transaction with cash happens lock down the Starting Cash UI section. Looks like we have a tag called Hero.StartCshFr that does just this. So maybe just apply that tag as soon as any item purchased/sold or money is earned/sold on the Journal tab.

That to me is a pretty good signal that I have finished setting the starting cash because I am buying gear.

 

[Silveras]

I don't know that this is specifically related, but since installing the beta I have had a number of "ACCESS VIOLATION" issues with "Bad Read" messages while using HeroLab from Realm Works to access the Rise of the Runelords Encounter Library.

Specifically, after successfully importing several encounters, the next encounter has a problem.

The first time it happened, I tried again and had the same result. Then I launched HeroLab separately, and had the same thing happen. Re-downloading the beta HL file "fixed" it, but...

After successfully importing a few more encounters, the same error occurred. In that case, launching HeroLab externally allowed me to access the Encounter Library. Returning to Realm Works and trying again the succeeded.

After successfully importing a few more encounters, the same happened. Exiting "Edit More" and then returning to it, I was then able to launch HeroLab from Realm Works and succeed in importing the desired encounter.

After successfully importing a few more encounters, the same happened. Exiting "Edit More" and then returning to it, I was able to launch HeroLab from Realm Works but did NOT succeed in importing the desired encounter. In that instance, launching HeroLab externally was again able to access the Encounter. Re-launching from Realm Works, I was able to import the encounter successfully.

I am not seeing anything consistent in terms of what clears the condition. Poking at a few re-tries in various ways has been good enough to resume work for now, but it is annoying, and did not start until Saturday, after I downloaded this beta Friday evening.

Naturally, crash files and emails sent.

 

[Colen]

I don't feel so strange now. My first reaction to this on the "Class" area and only after I selected a class was that it was TOO MUCH info in my face. I like minimalist UI stuff and this is just feels like too much info.

For something that I am going to use "one" time only for a character it is taking up allot of room in the UI. I much prefer the little existing area on the "Configure Your Hero" window. That is an area that is used pretty much rarely which makes sense as 99% of its settings you set one time.

By leaving this on the Class tab I guarantee you my players will constantly change there money using this section of HL instead of the journal.

Having starting cash in the Configure Hero window works great if it's something you set before building a character. Unfortunately it's dependent on character class and level, so it needs to be something you choose after you pick your class (for level 1 PCs) or level (for NPCs and level 2+ PCs).

We considered putting it behind a button (i.e. a "starting cash" button that opened a separate window with the details) but I didn't think that was discoverable enough - too easy to miss the button if you're not paying attention. The UI disappears as soon as you add money via the journal, so you shouldn't see it for long.

Your point about players using this to record money found during the game is well-taken, and one we're trying to avoid. I think we can solve that, and the other issue you found of starting cash changing as you level up, by adding an "accept starting cash" button, like you suggested in your posts after this one.

Thanks for your feedback, we appreciate it!

 

[Colen]

From playing with the journal it appears HL is assuming I will spend all my starting cash. If I got to the journal and subtract out -391 gp then the "starting cash" from the Classes tab goes away. But that is not realistic that a player spends 100% of there starting cash.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean here - how does it look like HL is expecting you spend all your starting cash? You should be able to leave as much as you like unspent (as long as you don't mind carrying around the weight of thousands of gp ).

 

[Colen]

Played around with the Mechanics section for redoing cash names including renaming gp, changing its weight, and adding a new coin type. I tried to zero weight the gp by adding a zero and nothing changed. If I changed that to -1 then I was able to zero out the gp weight. Zero did work for the new coin type I added.

Thanks for pointing that out, I'll see if we can figure out a more consistent way to specify that the starting 4 coins are zero-weight.

 

[Colen]

Thinking maybe the easy way to do this is if "any" transaction with cash happens lock down the Starting Cash UI section. Looks like we have a tag called Hero.StartCshFr that does just this. So maybe just apply that tag as soon as any item purchased/sold or money is earned/sold on the Journal tab.

That to me is a pretty good signal that I have finished setting the starting cash because I am buying gear.

We actually do this on the journal tab - as soon as you add cash via the journal, the starting cash UI disappears and the amount is locked (or at least is intended to be, the bugs you found notwithstanding). So we are on the same page there.

I think doing it when you buy something is a bit premature - I can easily see someone buying their gear, then deciding "This isn't nearly enough money" and going back to add the Rich Parents trait to get more.

 

[Colen]

I don't know that this is specifically related, but since installing the beta I have had a number of "ACCESS VIOLATION" issues with "Bad Read" messages while using HeroLab from Realm Works to access the Rise of the Runelords Encounter Library.

Specifically, after successfully importing several encounters, the next encounter has a problem.

The first time it happened, I tried again and had the same result. Then I launched HeroLab separately, and had the same thing happen. Re-downloading the beta HL file "fixed" it, but...

After successfully importing a few more encounters, the same error occurred. In that case, launching HeroLab externally allowed me to access the Encounter Library. Returning to Realm Works and trying again the succeeded.

After successfully importing a few more encounters, the same happened. Exiting "Edit More" and then returning to it, I was then able to launch HeroLab from Realm Works and succeed in importing the desired encounter.

After successfully importing a few more encounters, the same happened. Exiting "Edit More" and then returning to it, I was able to launch HeroLab from Realm Works but did NOT succeed in importing the desired encounter. In that instance, launching HeroLab externally was again able to access the Encounter. Re-launching from Realm Works, I was able to import the encounter successfully.

I am not seeing anything consistent in terms of what clears the condition. Poking at a few re-tries in various ways has been good enough to resume work for now, but it is annoying, and did not start until Saturday, after I downloaded this beta Friday evening.

Naturally, crash files and emails sent.

Sorry you're running into problems! Can you please send me your fogbugz case number so I can have a look?

 

[Silveras]

Sorry you're running into problems! Can you please send me your fogbugz case number so I can have a look?

Case numbers Sent via email

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean here - how does it look like HL is expecting you spend all your starting cash? You should be able to leave as much as you like unspent (as long as you don't mind carrying around the weight of thousands of gp ).

Sorry you sort of had to read through my posts as one long post.

What I was saying is that after I purchased gear I had 391gp left. To get the Starting Cash UI to go away on the Classes tab I had to use the journal to zero out all my cash by doing a -391gp. From what your saying any gp spent on the journal tab will do this. That I guess makes sense as you assume someone during an adventure will "earn" gp on the journal tab.

The issue with the above assumption is that my group does not divide treasure until the end of a chapter. This means they can gain several levels but no gp. The money is kept in a party kitty that pays for everything until the group has enough to evenly divide treasure.

But I do think a "Finished" button will make allot of this more intuitive for games to work with. Also now that I know this Starting Cash UI goes away my initial comment about it being too much is resolved.

 

[Silveras]

The starting cash display may "go away" after you make a Journal update.. but that's not much help when looking at a Monster or NPC for which there will not be any Journal update.

In such cases, attempting to "0" the starting gold and click "Accept Default Starting Cash" re-sets the value and adds it to the 0 on the pre-existing creature.

For Players, I think the functionality is probably fine. For GMs, though, where the use of starting cash probably affects less than 50% of the creatures they create and manipulate, the display is cumbersome and intrusive.