Pathfinder 1E: ETA?

[Maidhc O Casain]

Is there any update on when we can expect PF 1E to arrive on HLO?

And a follow up question: Is this something that's even being actively worked on right now? If not, is there any guess as to when y'all will start actively working on it?

And a final follow up: If there's no guess as to when you'll start working on it, are there still definite plans to actually make it happen? Or is it relegated to the "maybe, someday, if we have time" category?

Thanks in advance for any info you can provide.

 

[Ualaa]

I'm sure a lot of PF 1E people would like to try the campaign theater, and it would be beneficial to Lone Wolf to have ongoing revenue from long time customers now that there aren't new data packages for the system.

For our group, we'd need 3pp packages to be live too (community package and spheres), before it would benefit our group.

But just getting PF onto HLO would be a great start.

 

[Dwayne]

I think the lack of a response answers your question. I think what we already have is all there will be for PF1. I don't think there is enough interest for Lone Wolf to spend the money to put PF1 on HL Online.

 

[Joe]

PF1 in HLO is still a future possibility, we haven't announced one way or another.

From a technical perspective, PF1 is an especially complex case compared to bringing a brand new game on board, as all of Starfinder, PF2, and SR6 have been. PF1 has been around FOREVER, and has mountains of content associated with it. Much of this content was developed against an older codebase that has since been upgraded, so we're faced with the choice of either a) bring the old content up to the new technical standard, or b) re-implement lots of old moldy code in the newer codebase to support the old content as-is. Both of these options are time-intensive.

People also have TONS of pre-existing characters that they will want a way to convert/bring over/import. Much of our infrastructure for PF1 and it's content packages predate HLO, in some cased by quite a lot, so we'd be looking at reconciling our old sales system vs the new.

Delivering this all at once is basically a non-starter, as we'd have to go dark for an effective eternity to make that happen. So internally, we've been trying to see if there are viable ways to deliver this monstrosity in meaningful chunks while still making progress toward the overall end goal. Breaking it into chunks introduces it's own complexity and pitfalls, so there's no easy answer.

 

[Tarmor]

PF1 in HLO is still a future possibility, we haven't announced one way or another.

But... you did, originally! LW had stated that the systems in HLC would be brought across to HLO. I note that this intention isn't in the HLO FAQ anymore. Now there's just a reference to "Classic users will have the option to migrate any content we duplicate in Online." I can still see Rob's HLC/HLO post where he says "Once we have those game systems ported over to Hero Lab Online, new material will come out for both products." I read that as an intention to duplicate HLC system in HLO even though that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
If bringing PF1 across is too difficult, what does that mean for all the other systems?

 

[Toblakai]

But... you did, originally! LW had stated that the systems in HLC would be brought across to HLO. I note that this intention isn't in the HLO FAQ anymore. Now there's just a reference to "Classic users will have the option to migrate any content we duplicate in Online." I can still see Rob's HLC/HLO post where he says "Once we have those game systems ported over to Hero Lab Online, new material will come out for both products." I read that as an intention to duplicate HLC system in HLO even though that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
If bringing PF1 across is too difficult, what does that mean for all the other systems?

I suspect that PF1 is now back burned because the ROI is going to be low. No new products are coming out for PF1 so how can they invest the time and money to support it when they won't get much new income from it? I suspect Rob's comment was pre-PF2.

I personally would really like to see PF1 for HLO because that is what I play mostly. But I already own most of the PF1 packages, so they wouldn't get any new money from me and I am already using Starfinder for HLO so the annual maintenance cost would not be "new" income.

Now I would support a kickstarter to hire a contract developer to do the porting...

 

[thaX]

The old info being translated into the new database/codebase is beginning to look like a hand input job.
That would make the way toward HLO getting PF1 a lot harder if that is the case.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

I have HLO for Starfinder, but I bought it for 2 very specific case uses. I was in a Starfinder game that we played just to see what it was like, and I wanted to take a look at HLO. My group was done with Starfinder after 1 session, and I won't be playing PF2 or Shadowrun. I might play Savage Worlds, but I've seen nothing to indicate it's coming to HLO. So once they start charging for server access to HLO I'm done with that, and I have lifetime server access for Realm Works. Which means that if PF1 and/or SWADE don't get ported over to HLO, LoneWolf will not have anything else I'm interested in paying for and will not be getting any more of my money (maybe I'll buy a couple more RW products like the Beastiaries, but even that's not really likely).

This is not said in anger - I understand the difficulty of making these decisions. It's just a fact. Well OK, to be fair, I AM a little angry that once again it seems they've promised something they will end up not delivering.

It IS disappointing. I've happily supported LW for years and years both by spending my money and (mostly) singing their praises. I am sad that I'll likely not have reason to do so any longer.

 

[Joe]

But... you did, originally! LW had stated that the systems in HLC would be brought across to HLO. I note that this intention isn't in the HLO FAQ anymore. Now there's just a reference to "Classic users will have the option to migrate any content we duplicate in Online." I can still see Rob's HLC/HLO post where he says "Once we have those game systems ported over to Hero Lab Online, new material will come out for both products." I read that as an intention to duplicate HLC system in HLO even though that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
If bringing PF1 across is too difficult, what does that mean for all the other systems?

You'll have to forgive me, I'm a programmer, not a business guy. So I'm not always up to speed on every announcement and post we make on that front. I meant more along the lines of "We have neither announced a release date for PF1 in HLO, nor have we announced that we've decided not to do it."

My main goal here is to give my technical insights as best as I understand them.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

You'll have to forgive me, I'm a programmer, not a business guy. So I'm not always up to speed on every announcement and post we make on that front. I meant more along the lines of "We have neither announced a release date for PF1 in HLO, nor have we announced that we've decided not to do it."

My main goal here is to give my technical insights as best as I understand them.

Thank you for clarifying this, Joe. Is there a chance one of the business guys will chime in here? I'd really just like to set my expectations appropriately. If there is a good chance PF1 will come to HLO, I'm a "hope springs eternal" guy. If it's really not likely to happen I need to get that into my head and just let it go.

 

[Tarmor]

Apologies to you Joe if you felt my concern was directed at you specifically. I understand that LW posts on the forums come from different people in different positions who may not be the best person to answer specific questions or offer guidelines on future LW work.
Like Maidhc, if PF1 doesn't come to HLO then LW quite likely has nothing to offer me anymore. It seems like the standard response from LW regarding pre-HLO systems is "we may continue fixing bugs, but nothing new is going to happen" and HLO is only new systems going forward, with official package support being months behind the actual book releases, if at all.
I'll keep hoping for better news, (particularly from Rob as to the future of all LW products) but I won't be surprised to hear little or nothing.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

I offer the following as further evidence that Pathfinder 1st will never come to HLO, in spite of Rob's promises.

The Savage Worlds game system for HLC is written and maintained almost in it's entirety by volunteers. The game got a significant update recently. CapedCrusader (the primary data file contributor, and again, a volunteer) submitted his completed update for the HLC files to LoneWolf on October 13th, 2019. Radio silence from them until December 13th, two months later, when they said they would "try to get us a test set by the holidays." Followed by another month and a half of radio silence, then today… they told CapedCrusader "they've been busy working on Campaign Theater and have not gotten to the Savage Worlds update review yet, and do not know when they will."

If they can't even spare the time to review an update where all the heavy lifting has been done for them, I'm guessing we'll be adding Rob's promise that Pathfinder 1st will be ported over to HLO, which will require significantly more work on their part, to the pile of other promises that will never be fulfilled.

Disappointing.

 

[Toblakai]

If they can't even spare the time to review an update where all the heavy lifting has been done for them, I'm guessing we'll be adding Rob's promise that Pathfinder 1st will be ported over to HLO, which will require significantly more work on their part, to the pile of other promises that will never be fulfilled.

Disappointing.

From posts by Rob, I am pretty sure LWD means well and wants to do the work, but right now focusing on porting a system that will never get new content is not a good ROI. I bet that PF2 really threw a wrench in their plans also. Small companies need to focus on getting stuff done that allows them to continue as a company.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

From posts by Rob, I am pretty sure LWD means well and wants to do the work, but right now focusing on porting a system that will never get new content is not a good ROI. I bet that PF2 really threw a wrench in their plans also. Small companies need to focus on getting stuff done that allows them to continue as a company.

Nor will it ever be a good ROI. But neither is abandoning promises of service to part of your existing, loyal customer base. The fact that it's a poor return on investment doesn't relieve them of responsibility for doing what they said they would do, nor does it eliminate my right to be disappointed - even angry - about it when they don't.

To be clear, I also believe that Rob and Co mean well. I in no way ascribe malicious intent or deliberate wrong doing for any of this. And it is their business. Neither fact which lessens my disappointment.

 

[Farling]

The fact that it's a poor return on investment doesn't relieve them of responsibility for doing what they said they would do

They are a business, so they can change their mind about what they will do...

However it doesn't mean that their existing customer base will be happy with their business choices.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

They are a business, so they can change their mind about what they will do...

However it doesn't mean that their existing customer base will be happy with their business choices.

Well, sure they can! Anyone can, at any time. I can promise anything I want to promise, to anyone I want to promise it to. Then "change my mind" and not fulfill that promise. It damages my integrity and credibility to do so, but I can do it. I'm not talking about what folks CAN do...

 

[Farling]

Well, sure they can! Anyone can, at any time. I can promise anything I want to promise, to anyone I want to promise it to. Then "change my mind" and not fulfill that promise. It damages my integrity and credibility to do so, but I can do it. I'm not talking about what folks CAN do...

You were talking about "responsibility for doing what they said they would do", which is fairly close.

 

[thaX]

I am hoping that HLO gets the inner workings of the current products working and up to HLC quality more so than getting PF1 changed over to it. Offline use is a priority, but it seems to be an afterthought right now.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

You were talking about "responsibility for doing what they said they would do", which is fairly close.

That's it exactly. Thanks, Farling.

 

[Farling]

I am hoping that HLO gets the inner workings of the current products working and up to HLC quality more so than getting PF1 changed over to it. Offline use is a priority, but it seems to be an afterthought right now.

With the amount of material to convert from HLC to HLO, it would be sensible for them to implement a converter that reads the XML files and generates the data and scripts in whatever language they are now using.

Doing the conversion manually would get individual small parts available more quickly, but in the long run it would likely take longer to convert everything manually.

(I've seen both approaches taken in my 32 years of programming - and cringed when people chose the manual approach.)