Mithral Shirt vs. Mithral Chain Shirt

[Yaro]

Under "Armor" when I select "New magic, custom or masterwork armor..." I get a menu that includes "Mithral Shirt". It says it's an "extremely light chain shirt" that costs 1100 gp and weighs 10 lbs. When I add it I see that I get +4 to my AC and that it has a max. dex bonus of +6, no armor check penalty and 10% arcane failure.

However, if I select "Custom / Magic armor" and then chose a Mithral Chain Shirt, I get everything identical except that it says "Mithral Chain Shirt" and weighs 12.5 lbs.

My guess is that the Mithral Shirt in the main menu is supposed to weigh 12.5 lbs.

Does this sound right?

 

[Mathias]

Core Rulebook pg. 466: The Mithral Shirt is listed as weighing 10 lbs.

Core Rulebook pg. 155: Items made of the Mithral material are half their normal weight

Core Rulebook pg. 151: The weight of a chain shirt is normally 25 lbs.

I agree with you that they ought to be the same weight, but the items listed in the specific armors aren't always the same as those built using materials (see Elven Chain vs. Mithral Chain mail and the proficiencies required for each).

 

[Yaro]

It's 10 lbs!

Mathias - Thanks for pointing that out. That is very interesting what you found.

I decided to put up a post at http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboard...rRPG/rules/howMuchDoesAMithralChainShirtWeigh to get some feedback and it seems pretty clear that the 'specific' weight of the Mithral Chain Shirt overrides the general rule, which is what you said.

Thank you for the help with this one and I hope you don't mind me pointing out things like this.

 

[Yaro]

Mathias - I purchased the Mithral Shirt (10 lbs), however, I'm unable to upgrade the item to +1 in Hero Lab. The only way to get a +1 item is to take a chain shirt, make it Mithral and then add the +1. This is fine, but the item now weighs 12.5 lbs.

My thought is that when someone take a chain shirt and makes it Mithral you should override the 1/2 weight calculation and just make it 10 lbs.

2.5 extra lbs is a very minor deal, but do you have any other idea how to work around this? Thanks!

 

[Nikmal]

Speaking of Mithral Shirt, Dwarven Plate, and the like. Why is it there is no way to advance them with magical enhancements? I would think that there would be without having to go in to the editor and fiddle with the settings to do so?

Can this be included in an update? Things like Elven Chain already have this enhanced but not the mundane armor items like the ones mentioned above and the Darkwood Shield and Darkwood Buckler (while not as important as the others mentioned above)

Thanks!

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

Speaking of Mithral Shirt, Dwarven Plate, and the like. Why is it there is no way to advance them with magical enhancements? I would think that there would be without having to go in to the editor and fiddle with the settings to do so?

Can this be included in an update? Things like Elven Chain already have this enhanced but not the mundane armor items like the ones mentioned above and the Darkwood Shield and Darkwood Buckler (while not as important as the others mentioned above)

Thanks!

I second this. Can't existing magic items be further enhanced per RAW? At least up to the maximum +10 total bonus value?

 

[Mathias]

The magic items in the specific weapons & armor sections are, in my opinion, specific items, constructed as-is, and not available for further modification through the bonuses/special abilities rules that are separate sections in the armor and weapon rules. Otherwise, the "of luck" ability would have been given an equivalent bonus and be in with the rest of the armor abilities, or Elven chain would be identical to a suit of chain mail with the mithral material applied.

In Hero Lab, if you want to create +3 elven chain, you could either make a copy of the existing elven chain item, and then set the copy to be +3 and then set the price for it, or you could duplicate the Mithral material to create an "Elven Mithral" material that applies the differences between elven chain and mithral chainmail.

 

[Yaro]

The magic items in the specific weapons & armor sections are, in my opinion, specific items, constructed as-is, and not available for further modification through the bonuses/special abilities rules that are separate sections in the armor and weapon rules. Otherwise, the "of luck" ability would have been given an equivalent bonus and be in with the rest of the armor abilities, or Elven chain would be identical to a suit of chain mail with the mithral material applied.

Basically you're saying that a Mithral Shirt is 10 lbs because it's a "special" item. However, a chain shirt that you then make Mithral is going to be 12.5 lbs, so any magical Mithral chain shirts are going to have to be 12.5 lbs. It a bit strange, but I guess I can see that either way. Thank you for the reply!

 

[risner]

Basically you're saying that a Mithral Shirt is 10 lbs because it's a "special" item. However, a chain shirt that you then make Mithral is going to be 12.5 lbs, so any magical Mithral chain shirts are going to have to be 12.5 lbs. It a bit strange, but I guess I can see that either way. Thank you for the reply!

No, I think he was talking about the magical items (like celestial armor)

The non-magical items can be magically enhanced (like 10lb mithral chain)

 

[Yaro]

Misunderstanding

No, I think he was talking about the magical items (like celestial armor)

The non-magical items can be magically enhanced (like 10lb mithral chain)

Then I think we might have a misunderstanding. To reiterate, Core Rulebook pg. 466 has the Mithral Shirt (non-magical) listed as weighing 10 lbs. Core Rulebook pg. 151 has the weight of a chain shirt (non-magical) listed as 25 lbs. Core Rulebook pg. 155 says that items made of the Mithral material are half their normal weight, which would make a Mithral Chain Shirt 12.5 lbs.

So is a Mithral Chain Shirt 10 lbs or 12.5 lbs?

Mathias pointed out, and I confirmed on the Paizo forum, that the specific weight (10 lbs.) overrides the general rule regarding Mithral items. This makes sense.

So now how much does a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt weigh?

I think you should, as laid out by the Pathfinder Society, upgrade the 10 lb Mithral Shirt to +1, which would mean that it's still 10 lbs. You cannot, however, do this with Hero Lab. You can, however, take a chain shirt, make it Mithral and then add +1, although it'll then be 12.5 lbs. I think what Mathias is saying is that you can't upgrade a 10 lbs Mithral Shirt to +1.

Does this make sense? What do you think?

 

[Nikmal]

The magic items in the specific weapons & armor sections are, in my opinion, specific items, constructed as-is, and not available for further modification through the bonuses/special abilities rules that are separate sections in the armor and weapon rules. Otherwise, the "of luck" ability would have been given an equivalent bonus and be in with the rest of the armor abilities, or Elven chain would be identical to a suit of chain mail with the mithral material applied.

In Hero Lab, if you want to create +3 elven chain, you could either make a copy of the existing elven chain item, and then set the copy to be +3 and then set the price for it, or you could duplicate the Mithral material to create an "Elven Mithral" material that applies the differences between elven chain and mithral chainmail.

I am fine with the "Magic" items not being able to be modified but I am wondering why we do not have the option of being able to do the "mundane" items not being able to modify them. Adding a magical enhancement to the mundane items such as the Mithral shirt and Darkwood buckler and Dwarven Plate is a mystery to me why it is not set up to be able to edit to enhance them with a magical enhancement to say a Dwarven Plate +3 or a Mithral chain shirt +2 if I wanted to in Hero Labs ??

This is what I was asking for.. not to be able to change the magical ones but the mundane NON-magical ones.

 

[Mathias]

I am fine with the "Magic" items not being able to be modified but I am wondering why we do not have the option of being able to do the "mundane" items not being able to modify them. Adding a magical enhancement to the mundane items such as the Mithral shirt and Darkwood buckler and Dwarven Plate is a mystery to me why it is not set up to be able to edit to enhance them with a magical enhancement to say a Dwarven Plate +3 or a Mithral chain shirt +2 if I wanted to in Hero Labs ??

This is what I was asking for.. not to be able to change the magical ones but the mundane NON-magical ones.

It's my opinion that everything in the specific armors section is as-is, and does not mesh with the bonus equivalent rules. Those armors defined in the Equipment chapter (and the equipment sections of other books) are the ones that are used as the base armor.

As I said, if a GM wants to introduce a mithral shirt +2 that's based on the 10 lb version from pg 466, that can be done using the editor - either by duplciating the mithral shirt specific armor and giving it an enhancement bonus (and deciding on the appropriate price), or by modifying the Mithral material so that its weight multiplier is 2/5 instead of the 1/2 listed in the description of the mithral material (or so that after applying the weight reduction, it rounds down to the nearest multiple of 5 lbs.).

 

[risner]

It's my opinion that everything in the specific armors section is as-is

While I agree on magic ones like Celestial armor, I don't on nonmagical like 10 lb chain shirt.

But you are right, it is trivial to fix.

Yaro: no I understand, the 10 lb thing has been a FAQ since 3.0 days.
I didn't understand that you couldn't make one in HL 10 lb +5 version.

 

[chiefweasel]

Magic is heavy

 

[Lawful_g]

HahHAHhHAhhahHHAhaaaaa!

I don't know why, but your comment truly made me laugh just now. I don't know why...

 

[Yaro]

Need specific rule for mithral chain shirt

It's my opinion that everything in the specific armors section is as-is, and does not mesh with the bonus equivalent rules. Those armors defined in the Equipment chapter (and the equipment sections of other books) are the ones that are used as the base armor.

As I said, if a GM wants to introduce a mithral shirt +2 that's based on the 10 lb version from pg 466, that can be done using the editor - either by duplciating the mithral shirt specific armor and giving it an enhancement bonus (and deciding on the appropriate price), or by modifying the Mithral material so that its weight multiplier is 2/5 instead of the 1/2 listed in the description of the mithral material (or so that after applying the weight reduction, it rounds down to the nearest multiple of 5 lbs.).

I've found the Editor (thank you for point it out) and it is very cool. It's also quite complicated. I played around with it for an hour but wasn't able to get the desired effect. It did, however, give me some insight into how HL works internally, so I'm starting to understand why you're reluctant to fix the issue.

It's pretty clear from the rules that a +1 mithral shirt should weight 10 lbs. HL, however, does not allow that. Creating a unique +1 mithral shirt item won't work for +2, etc. and changing the mithral weight modifier will mess up everything else.

As far as I can tell, the only elegant solution is to incorporate a specific override rule in HL -- If armor = chain shirt && material = mithral then weight = 10.

By the way, pressing the "Test Now!" button integrates the new thing into HL, but how do you then remove it if you don't want it? My HL now has a bunch of different mithral shirts that don't work. Is there a way I can get it back to how it was? Thanks!

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

Hi, Yaro.

Try this (apologies if you've already done so):

Open the Editor. Go to the Armor, Magic tab. Click the 'New (Copy)' button on the bottom left. Select and open the Mithril Shirt. In the 'Unique ID' space make up an ID for the item (e.g. iYaroMShrt). Just to the left of that name your item (e.g. Mithril Shirt +1). In the 'Enhancement Bonus' section (left column, five or six items down) enter your desired magical bonus. Save it. Test it. Equip it on a character. It should work fine. When you want to make a +2 version you can either repeat this process (thus making it possible to select either a +1 or +2) or you can simply edit the one you've already made to reflect the new modifiers.

When you make a character, go to the 'Armor' tab and select 'Add New Magic, Custom or Masterwork Armor of Size . . .' When you scroll down to Mithril Shirt you should also see a selection for 'Mithril Shirt +1' (or whatever you named your item). After you add it, check the box to equip it and your AC should go up by 5.

To remove all of your others, go into the editor and open the Data File you saved them to (probably the one in which you just made this one). Select one that you want to remove and click the 'Delete' button in the bottom left. Rinse and repeat.