is d20 support static, or are there going to be upgrades?

[mirtos]

While the d20 system wont be changing, a lot of us still play.

There seems to be lots of work on the pathfinder, and I get that, and maybe from a business sense improving the d20 product doesnt make a lot of sense. I know the encounter builder went to d20, but it went to all systems. Id like to see improvement to the editor, which have happened in pathfinder.

Is the d20 support stuck? Or are we going to see work on it? If its stuck, please let us know.

 

[RavenX]

D20 ogl support is what it is. I'm not sure if Lone Wolf has an official license for 3.5, but anyone can do OGL content due to the OGL license. Pathfinder is "Officially Licensed" and is Paizo's "official" character builder, which is why most of the support goes into Pathfinder. Paizo releases a lot of content quickly and it needs to kept up with.

Also, just going to put this out there, d20 hasn't changed much, if at all, since 4e came out. So I'm not sure what, outside of epic level support, would be needed in these files?

 

[mirtos]

You misunderstood. Im not asking for additional content. I fully understand that no content will be provided by LoneWolf. Im talking about features. The pathfinder editor is much more feature rich than the d20 editor. Now, granted SOME of these things come from more content, but other of these things come from better interfaces, and not the additional amount of data.

I was asking whether there would be improvements to the software on the D20 side, or if it was mostly dead.

The pathfinder show editor makes it much easier to put in custom content than the d20 show editor does.

Some other things that the Pathfinder version does thats all about UI of the software, skill shows you break down when you click on them. D20 calculates, but it doesnt tell you what its calculating, and sometimes its important to be able to double check.

Minor things, but all of these minor things do add up.

I also understand that because its the official editor of Paizo, Pathfinder is going to have to take priorirty, but I think my question if there will be improvements to the d20 product will happen - or if we are stagnant, and lone wolf doesnt find it economical to improve the d20 product -is still a valid question.

 

[TobyFox2002]

I would very much like to see additional support for the d20 system, the pathfinder has a great deal more features, including deities, epic level casting and class advancement, perhaps built in monster advancer and tags to set "set up" at which level the monsters increase in size category.

On a side note, (and perhaps unrelated), there has been alot of talk on the Roll20.com forums that they may be working with hero labs for "importable" character sheets for their new version any word as to the truth of that? If so, that would be AWSOME!

 

[mirtos]

Epic level casting and perhaps class advancement would fall under "content", and i dont think we could see that. As would deities. only OGL could appear. But i would like to see some of the features that the pathfinder version of the program has. Since I've had both licenses, which has been about 2 years, maybe more, maybe less, I have seen improvements to the Pathfinder version outside of additional content, and very little similar improvement to the d20 version.

If the answer is "no", I'd just like to know. I know small companies have to make decisions, but id still like to know. Thanks.

 

[TobyFox2002]

I disagree epic level falls under content, just set the system so that it doesn't give an error when you go beyond 20th caster level and add some math that calculates a continuing progression.

As for dieties being OGL... well thats where "User Content" Comes in same as all the rest.

 

[Bluephoenix]

I'd like to see the support framework put in for the following list, and maybe some tidying up/porting of some of the improvements that were pioneered in pathfinder.

• Deities
• Epic Levels
• Level Adjustment Buyoff
• Custom Magic Items
• Monster Advancement

even if there can't be any actual content included, there are enough of us working on it that we can rectify that in short order, but there are just some things that we can't do with the community set no matter how fancy we get because the program framework just doesn't support it.

I've been toying with some ideas that MAY make epic progression possible, inspired by sendric's hack-tastic method for making ToB ilevels work, but I promise nothing yet, and still have some other stuff on the list to do first.

edit: I'd also really, really like to see read-only support for D20 portfolios in the hero lab for ipad app. as it is I'm still printing out PDFs to take to the table every game I play in :/

 

[RavenX]

I disagree epic level falls under content, just set the system so that it doesn't give an error when you go beyond 20th caster level and add some math that calculates a continuing progression.

As for dieties being OGL... well thats where "User Content" Comes in same as all the rest.

TobyFox,

You cannot change the size of the arrays in hero lab through scripting. Part of the reason Epic Level support would be "new" content is because they'd have to add spell slots of 10th level or higher, which means altering the existing array limitation of 10 levels of spells. This cannot be done via scripts. I admit, some things can be done easily but there are hard coded changes that would have to be made for epic level support. Epic level spells would need a few new fields and tags (while tags can be added without too much trouble, I don't think fields can be done with xml work). You'd have to be able to set the spells as 10th level spells. You still need slots at higher levels to cover the metamagic adjustments epic level characters can do. Unless you're content without the ability to cast a maximized, extended chain lightning spell...

Pathfinder added new elements to the game which aren't part of the d20 system that you should bear in mind too. Alternate racial traits are wholly a pathfinder specific thing. Anytime a new thing like this is added to hero lab it requires the construction of a new component to handle it. That cannot be done from just the editor. It has to be done in xml. It could be done, but many of the epic level support issues would have to be addressed in xml.

 

[TobyFox2002]

I never said to use scripts, I said that all that would be needed is the math for the progression for the arrays. I would be happy if they made it so we continued to gain the epic progression for the 0-9 spells. And NOT an error about hitting the 20-th level cap.

As for 10th level and up spells... well that's another can of worms entirely. Useful for metamagics true (the only thing that I would truly, absolutely have to have), but much of the epic spells would be hard to implement, as they are often custom made spells based on spell seeds. You'd need to rely on the player to do the math and work out the epic spell details the old fashioned way... pen and paper.

I never mentioned racial traits.

 

[Colen]

Hi everyone,

Sorry for the lack of progress on d20. It's something I've wanted to devote some of our time to for a while, but unfortunately keeping up with Pathfinder and our other game systems has soaked up all of our time over the last couple of years.

While we're unable to provide any non-OGL content for d20 due to licensing restrictions, we do still want to continue development on it and add features like some of the ones you've been mentioning. We'll let everyone know when we have something to announce for that, although I'm not sure of the timescale at this point.

Sorry for the lack of movement on this game system - we're hoping to do better with it in future.

 

[mirtos]

Hi everyone,

Sorry for the lack of progress on d20. It's something I've wanted to devote some of our time to for a while, but unfortunately keeping up with Pathfinder and our other game systems has soaked up all of our time over the last couple of years.

While we're unable to provide any non-OGL content for d20 due to licensing restrictions, we do still want to continue development on it and add features like some of the ones you've been mentioning. We'll let everyone know when we have something to announce for that, although I'm not sure of the timescale at this point.

Sorry for the lack of movement on this game system - we're hoping to do better with it in future.

Its understandable that Pathfinder has soaked up your time. Im glad that its still on your radar.

 

[lifer4700]

Speaking as an Authoring Kit owner, would there ever be any chance that - since it's not high on the priority list, and been somewhat neglected for a while - that Lone Wolf might finally loosen up their grip on the source XML for d20? Or is it still too popular in sales?

I am currently working on a game system that is very similar to d20, but has a few major core differences in mechanics.

The skeleton/SW/4E files are a great set of reference docs, but they're not worth anything for re-use, so I have to re-design the d20 system from scratch. The d20 source, on the other hand, would have plenty I could recycle, and just modify the parts that are different. It would save tons of time.

 

[Alistair]

Hi everyone,

Sorry for the lack of progress on d20. It's something I've wanted to devote some of our time to for a while, but unfortunately keeping up with Pathfinder and our other game systems has soaked up all of our time over the last couple of years.

While we're unable to provide any non-OGL content for d20 due to licensing restrictions, we do still want to continue development on it and add features like some of the ones you've been mentioning. We'll let everyone know when we have something to announce for that, although I'm not sure of the timescale at this point.

Sorry for the lack of movement on this game system - we're hoping to do better with it in future.

A fresh thread on this coincided nicely with my recent purchase of 3.5. If there ever is an occasion when time is available, I want to make sure it's noted that both the Epic-level play rules, and the "Create-a-Deity" rules (though not any published deities, themselves) are OGL and in the RSRD.

Source: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35

 

[Hubrice]

I've been meaning to post this for some time. This is not about new content but about the program itself.

My first exposure to LWD was through Hero Lab and I purchased the d20 rules set based on feedback, reviews, and the demo. I was surprised and disappointed in the lack of updates and improvements. Given what I know now, I would have rather have purchased the PF version and modded it as needed for my campaign. I realize that the rules set is old, virtually unsupported via paper, and most of the revenue had moved on to 4E or PF. But it was essentially offered for the same price so with that, I expected the same level of updates and improvements (again, not new content).

I feel that I did not get my money's worth with the d20 license. It just does not feel as polished. The blue interface is difficult to look at, the UI is outdated in many places, and the usefulness of the editor tools is limited to those with substantial programming skills. I tried following many of the tutorials, but just did not have much luck. What I was looking for just was not covered, or the instructions were incomplete, or unclear to me. I admit that that most of the difficulty is probably on my end, but I thought I was purchasing a system that would allow me to control my game.

All that said, I saw Realm Works and fell in love with it and gave LWD another shot (RW is great!). I have accepted the limited usability of Hero Lab on my end. It allows me to manage combat well enough and to track character stats as needed. While I would greatly appreciate some more love towards the d20 version, it's currently "good enough" for me. My group will eventually move to D&D Next and maybe that version will be what I am looking for.

As for the current d20 license, I feel that it is not strong enough to stand on its own. Maybe it should be included free with the base HL license, or system creator kit, in addition to the choice of an actively supported system. Or maybe come with a coupon for a more actively supported system. Regardless, I'm happy with LWD, RW, and have accepted the d20 HL "as is".

 

[mirtos]

I wouldnt say that its not strong enough to stand on its own, I would say that the weakness of the interface (forget anything about new content) is much weaker than pathfinder.

For example:

in pathfinder, if you go to the customize armor or weapon (not editor, just normal customize), the space for the description, name, and the modifier, and file the 'X' is much bigger. In d20, often the description goes over the 'X' preventing you from even being able to remove things. This is a pretty basic UI bug. Ive discovered that if ive accidently added things (double clicking when i meant to click) sometimes the only way to remove the ability is to remove the item itself, and start from scratch. ok, i can do it, but this is something that i think just isnt up to snuff.

There are a lot of these issues.

I know it sounds like we're complaining. To some degree we are.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Things are finally in place for me to say something in this thread.

I'm excited to be able help out LW with the d20 system! Not the community stuff but the actual skeletal/package files for the system. So I am starting to fix the issues in the Bug Reports - Version 3.14 thread.

It is going to take some time for me to get up to speed so my plan is start with simpler issues and bug fixes at first. While I would love to jump in and fix the UI issue mentioned above I am going to have to leave that one alone for now. But hopefully as I learn I will get faster and better and can knock out all existing issues including the UI ones.

Once I get the core system bug free and I have more experience in the frame work my "hope" is to move onto adding new functionality. This will be down the road some as I need to gain experience in how the system fits together. It is pointless to add new features if it just breaks things.

Also please keep in mind I am NOT a full time employee of LW but a Volunteer. I still have to work my normal, full-time job to pay the bills. I will be doing my best but please keep in mind that I will be only putting in a few hours of work a week on this stuff. But I hope some movement is better than none.

 

[mirtos]

Things are finally in place for me to say something in this thread.

I'm excited to be able help out LW with the d20 system! Not the community stuff but the actual skeletal/package files for the system. So I am starting to fix the issues in the Bug Reports - Version 3.14 thread.

It is going to take some time for me to get up to speed so my plan is start with simpler issues and bug fixes at first. While I would love to jump in and fix the UI issue mentioned above I am going to have to leave that one alone for now. But hopefully as I learn I will get faster and better and can knock out all existing issues including the UI ones.

Once I get the core system bug free and I have more experience in the frame work my "hope" is to move onto adding new functionality. This will be down the road some as I need to gain experience in how the system fits together. It is pointless to add new features if it just breaks things.

Also please keep in mind I am NOT a full time employee of LW but a Volunteer. I still have to work my normal, full-time job to pay the bills. I will be doing my best but please keep in mind that I will be only putting in a few hours of work a week on this stuff. But I hope some movement is better than none.

That's awesome.

 

[Sendric]

Thanks, Shadow! Even just getting the bugs fixed will be a huge improvement!

 

[Hubrice]

Shadow, that is awesome. Congratulations and thank you. This is really good news and it also speaks highly of LW. I am really impressed that they are willing to open this up to you.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

No problem at all guys!

Anyways I sent over my first batch of bug fixes over to LW to have it code reviewed. Its been awhile sense anyone has code reviewed my stuff as on my normal job I act as gatekeeper.

So crossing my fingers that I did everything right.