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Improved Familiar and Harrower Prestige Class

E

erhea

Member
I am not sure if this is a bug or a rules interpretation. Levels taken as a harrower (ISWG) add spellcaster levels to an existing spellcaster class, but in hero lab they do not stack for purposes of what improved familiars a character is eligible for. Since the level requirement for various familiars requires "arcane spellcaster level," then spellcaster levels gained through the harrower class should stack for determining eligibility for improved familiars. I could be interpreting this rule incorrectly, but if not then this would be a bug.
 
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I believe the bonus levels from prestige classes are for spells per day and spells known only, not for any other purpose such as familiar powers. Here's the standard text for prestige class bonus spells (emphasis mine):

Spells: When a harrower gains a level, she gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefits a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of harrower to the level of whatever other spellcasting class she has.

Unless the prestige class grants a familiar itself, I think the class is working correctly.
 
Aaron,

I 100% agree that advancing in a prestige class such as harrower would not give any of the familiar abilities gained through wizard class advancement to a familiar. But when I read the rules for the prerequisite for the improved familiar feat, I think the wizard and harrower levels might stack. The prerequisite to improved familiar based upon levels looks at "arcane spellcaster level." The prerequisite does not require an arcane class level to satisfy the prerequisite.

With the hero I am building, I am taking 5 levels of wizard and 2 levels of harrower. Thus, it seems the arcane spellcaster level would be 7, and the wizard class level would be 5. It seems when we are talking about a prerequisite for a feat, that is different than a benefit conferred by class levels. Maybe not, but that is how I read the text.

If how I read the rules is correct, the familiar would not gain the master's class level benefits when the hero advances in a prestige class. These would include the natural armor adjustment, intelligence, and special abilities such as speak with animals of its kind identified on page 83 of the core rule book.

It does not seem as though an arcane caster level is a benefit conferred by the wizard class, but rather a ranking of the hero's spellcaster level. Since the harrower prestige class advances the spellcaster level, it seems like it would apply for determining which familiars a wizard can access through improved familiar.

I think your interpretation could be correct, but I haven't seen anything that would make it definitively more accurate than my interpretation. I'm just trying to sort it out.
 
One of the pre-reqs for that feat is also the Arcane Familiar ability. The Harrower Prestige Class does not grant a familiar, and does not specifically state that it advances an existing familiar. Therefore it would not add to the bonuses of the familiar from the previous class.
 
I agree Umarian, the harrower class would not add to the bonuses of the familiar of the previous class. However, the prerequisites for Improved Familiar include "Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, and sufficiently high level."

If a character stops advancing in a class that grants an arcane familiar, they still have the ability to acquire a familiar based upon the wizard levels already taken. Page 82 of the core rule books states "if a familiar is dismissed, lost, or dies, it can be replaced 1 week later through a specialized ritual that costs 200 gp per wizard level." This ability is not contingent upon continued advancement as a wizard. For example, if a hero stopped advancing as a wizard, and started advancing as a fighter, they could still use the ritual ability to obtain a new familiar after advancing as a fighter. The ability to acquire a familiar is not contingent on class level. Thus, if an arcane caster advances their arcane spellcaster level with a non-familiar prestige class, they do not lose the ability obtain a new familiar if the prior familiar is dismissed, lost, or dies. With this in mind, it seems like a character with wizard level 5 and harrower level 2 could obtain improved familiars with an arcane caster level of 7. The three prerequisites would be met:

1. Ability to Acquire a new familiar: the hero has this ability from her 5 levels of wizard.
2. Compatible Alignment: I assume the chosen familiar would meet this requirement.
3. sufficiently high level: As I discussed in my last post, the arcane spellcaster level would total seven, even though the wizard class level is 5.

With all three prerequisites of the Improved Familiar feat satisfied, it seems as though a wizard 5 harrower 2 hero would be able to select from the improved familiars available to arcane spellcaster's of 7th level.
 
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If I am understanding the explanation, you are interpreting the Caster Level requirement as being completely separate from the Ability to gain a familiar. Under that interpretation, couldn't one take a single level of something that grants a familiar, and then switch to a different class and get a high level familiar? For example, could I take 1 level of witch, then take 7 levels of Wizard (choosing to take an item for my arcane bond, instead of a familiar), then take improved familiar to get both a cool psuedodragon familiar and my bonded item?

This sounds like a bit of a stretch to me, I don't think the two conditions are separable. If you can find some sort of official word on this from paizo, we could certainly change it, but I believe our interpretation is correct at the moment.
 
I think as it stands the current Lone Wolf interpretation is correct.

Taking your example a wizard 5 / harrower 2 only has CL 5 for the purpose of familiar acquisition but CL 7 for determining spell effects.

The harrower levels only stack with casting ability for spell effects Per D20PFSRD bold emphasis mine.

When a harrower gains a level, she gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefits a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of harrower to the level of whatever other spellcasting class she has. If the character had more than one spellcasting class before she became a harrower, she must choose which class she adds each harrower level to for the purposes of determining spells per day.
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Aaron,

I really like your example, and agree your interpretation could be absolutely correct. If the way I am interpreting the improved familiar is correct, then a character could take a 1 level splash in a class that grants a familiar, and then advance in a non-familiar arcane class to obtain the 7 level requirement for improved familiar. In your witch 1 wizard 7 example (with the wizard taking arcane bond), that would essentially mean the character is taking a redundant 1st level caster level and expending a feat in exchange for an improved familiar. Is an essentially burned class level and a feat enough cost for an improved familiar? I think so, but maybe not. Regardless, I think both of our interpretations could be supported by the rule text in Improved Familiar. I think this issue requires clarification from Paizo, and I don't have any additional authority for my interpretation beyond the language of the rules text. It seems completely reasonable to continue to have hero lab interpret the prerequisites of Improved Familiar in the way you are until there is clarification from Paizo that indicates otherwise.
 
erhea said:
The prerequisite to improved familiar based upon levels looks at "arcane spellcaster level." The prerequisite does not require an arcane class level to satisfy the prerequisite.
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I agree the wording here could be more clear but I am taking spellcaster to be the same meaning as "class" actually. Otherwise they would have had to say "Caster Level" which we see in the Item Craft feats.

So they are trying to specify a specific type of class and that is a "arcane spellcasting" class. So you need to be level 7 in a arcane class that casts spells. Not just a 7th level Caster Level which is what the Harrow levels are giving you actually. As in that case their are several traits that I could take that would allow my Wizard 5/ Fighter 2 to meet the requirements of the feat and that really does not fit RAI.
 
ShadowChemosh,

I think it is reasonable to conclude the term "arcane spellcaster level" as used in the Improved Familiar feat is equivalent to arcane class level as you interpret the rule. However, I think it is also reasonable to conclude the term "arcane spellcaster level" is the equivalent of arcane caster level.

The prerequisite for Weapon Specialization is weapon focus and 4th level fighter. Thus, in other feat prerequisites they explicitly state when class levels are required. For improved familiar they state arcane spellcaster level's are required. If they meant class levels, it seems that would have been spelled out.

A Wizard 5 fighter 2 would not satisfy the requirement as I interpret the rule, because the fighter levels are not arcane levels, and would not stack for determining spellcasting class. In my opinion, the distinction between class and caster level of determining eligibility for improved familiars is only relevant for prestige classes that actually increase the caster level. A wizard 5 harrower 2 has an arcane caster level of 7. A wizard 5 fighter 2 would have an arcane caster level of 5.

Is there any other place in the book where the term spellcaster level or arcane spellcaster level is used? That might be useful in answering which interpretation is correct. As the Improved Familiar Feat is currently written I believe it could be interpreted either way.
 
erhea said:
The prerequisite for Weapon Specialization is weapon focus and 4th level fighter. Thus, in other feat prerequisites they explicitly state when class levels are required. For improved familiar they state arcane spellcaster level's are required. If they meant class levels, it seems that would have been spelled out.
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Good example. See it says "fighter" a specific "class". So once again going back where arcane spellcaster is a class that casts arcane spells. As this can cover more than one class like Wizard, Sorcerer, Witch, even bard falls into the that part of the pre-req. Note the feat does not say "caster level" like we have for Item Craft feats.

erhea said:
A Wizard 5 fighter 2 would not satisfy the requirement as I interpret the rule, because the fighter levels are not arcane levels, and would not stack for determining spellcasting class. In my opinion, the distinction between class and caster level of determining eligibility for improved familiars is only relevant for prestige classes that actually increase the caster level. A wizard 5 harrower 2 has an arcane caster level of 7. A wizard 5 fighter 2 would have an arcane caster level of 5.
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My example was showing for a Wizard 5/Fighter 2 using the Magic Trait Magical Knack. Which puts your CL at 7 for the wizard.

So according to the rules if we can not find a "game" term for spellcaster we have to find the dictionary term (which I looked and does not exist). Wikipedia entry for spellcaster does and explains its a generic term for those that cast spells.

If you look at the "Common Terms" in the CORE rule book page 11 you see it has a game term for "Caster Level" but NOT for "spellcaster". So its not a game term like "full-round action". If you look further by searching for the term "spellcaster" you see that it is used just like the wikipedia says as a generic term for a character that casts spells.

It is never used as a game term to define a specific thing like Swift, Standard Action, 5ft step, Bard, Transmutation magic, etc....

So based on the above its showing "class" level needs to be seven not caster level.
 
ShadowChemosh

It sounds like you are in agreement that spellcaster level is not a defined term in the rules. I think you are making an intuitive leap when you conclude spellcaster level is defined as class level based upon the language of other feats. Is that a reasonable deduction? I think it is. Is it the only viable interpretation of the term? Not based upon what you presented.

You are using inductive reasoning to reach your conclusion. You start with the premise that Paizo used the term caster level in defining feat prerequisites in the past, and therefore would have used it for Improved Familiar if that is what they intended. However, the same logic could be applied to prior instances in the core rules when they used class level as a term of art, and then chose not to use it in the improved familiar feat requirements. Therefore, without additional contextual guidance I do not believe either of our interpretations are correct or wrong.

Ultimately, this is an issue I will just need to get a DM ruling on in game. There is definitely not enough guidance to change how hero lab interprets the feat requirements. I really appreciate your input though, thank you for helping me to confirm that there is not a clear answer on this issue!
 
@erhea I just wanted to say that damn this has been the nicest rules discussion I think I have ever been apart of. :D

I hope you do get an answer from Paizo. I also wish that they did a better job in answering questions actually or updating their FAQ. I love Pathfinder but have found it easier to start a FAQ for my group as it can take years to get something out of Paizo... :(
 
Thanks Shadowchemosh!

I probably will not bother with Paizo, and just get a ruling in game from my DM. He is a pretty fair DM, so however he rules is fine with me. It sounds like by the time Paizo responds the choice in game will already be made. This is actually a hypothetical build for my current 1st level wizard (I build my characters out at creation to make sure I don't miss any prerequisites I need along the way). It means I will probably wait until 9th level to add my first prestige class as harrower. Not a big deal, since the prestige class was mostly being taken for flavor. I could take it at eight level, but if I'm already going to 7 as a conjurer, I might as well take 8 levels and get the dimensional step ability. Thanks again for the input!
 
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