Gestalt Heroes?

[af22man]

Hello everyone,

I was wondering, what is the best way to gestalt my heros up?

I am not very good with the editor but am willing to give it a try. I have looked at it but it seems like i need a one on one tutorial on it. does anyone have a good youtube resource or step by step guide on how to do it? i have done a lot of research but the only sources i can find are from people who are already skilled in creating these custom classes.

Thanks!

 

[Aaron]

The most common way to handle Gestalts I have seen folks talk about is through archetyping one class with the abilities of the second. I believe there are some youtube videos that introduce some editor concepts made by one of our fans. We also used to have an unoffical Q & A thing monthly, but it died for lack of interest, sadly.

My advice is to check out the tutorials included with the program and take it slow. Maybe don't jump into the deep end of the pool with gestalting right away. But if you must, the forum is probably your most valuable resource.

 

[delor317]

I have actually started making classes for them and am currently trying to do Rogue Summoner but can't get the eidolon companion to show up. I have already finished the Cleric Monk and Monk Fighter.

 

[RavenX]

Aaron, couldn't this be accomplished with a new class called Gestalt?
Just use a configurable to select two classes and have a series of eval scripts that writes the candidate tag expressions for the classes mixed? More scripts that just pick the better progression between the two chosen classes?

 

[Aaron]

Mmmmmayyybeee? It'd be pretty complex either way

 

[RavenX]

Maybe my coding is a bit more advanced than it was, but I just think it would be easier to implement a single class with a bootstrapped configurable that handled the classes to be added.

It's not that hard to construct a foreach loop to take the better hit die, better save, etc.

Yeah might be complex but I have had to think about this for multiclassing in 2e and it's basically the same kind of coding process for it.

 

[delor317]

I actually like your idea Raven and would really like to work with you on it. I just don't have the experience for that kind of coding and was only able to do what I did through trial and error.

 

[Dianae]

Depending on if you lock in the two classes chosen, or allow for the two classes to be chosen at each level you may need to include a counter for each of the chosen classes.

The eval scripts sound like the easiest route to take for creating Gestalt. A count to keep track of how many levels of any particular class, 6 script points to evaluate the better of Hit dice, Skill Points, Base Attack, and Each of the Saves. and an eval script to pull all of the special abilities for each class at the given level.

Compared to creating all of the archtypes (55 archtypes, if you only count core classes; 171 archetypes, if you count the base classes (not counting Alternate Classes which would bring it up to 210 archetypes) Double if the archetype can't be double applied ie; a Fighter(Cleric Gestalt) is coded differently from a Cleric(Fighter Gestalt)

Though Depending on how the bootstrapping is to occur, at worst, that's 20 Archtypes added to 21 different classes, if the Inverse match ups are coded differently.

Granted, I'm not sure what the complexity of said scripts and the timing of each are since I just started looking at editing things, but it seems like RavenX's plan it would be easier to code, In theory, at least.

 

[RavenX]

Depending on if you lock in the two classes chosen, or allow for the two classes to be chosen at each level you may need to include a counter for each of the chosen classes.

The eval scripts sound like the easiest route to take for creating Gestalt. A count to keep track of how many levels of any particular class, 6 script points to evaluate the better of Hit dice, Skill Points, Base Attack, and Each of the Saves. and an eval script to pull all of the special abilities for each class at the given level.

Compared to creating all of the archtypes (55 archtypes, if you only count core classes; 171 archetypes, if you count the base classes (not counting Alternate Classes which would bring it up to 210 archetypes) Double if the archetype can't be double applied ie; a Fighter(Cleric Gestalt) is coded differently from a Cleric(Fighter Gestalt)

Though Depending on how the bootstrapping is to occur, at worst, that's 20 Archtypes added to 21 different classes, if the Inverse match ups are coded differently.

Granted, I'm not sure what the complexity of said scripts and the timing of each are since I just started looking at editing things, but it seems like RavenX's plan it would be easier to code, In theory, at least.

Levels of the two classes wouldn't be an issue in my eyes. You gain experience with a gestalt as a combo of the two classes, not different rates. What I am proposing is a series of scripts that look at the two chosen classes and pull the tags, compare and take the better result. As far as I know, Base Attack Bonus and Save progressions are based on Tags. All that needs to be done is have the scripts assign the better tag to the Gestalt Class when the two classes are chosen.

I think that a single "Gestalt" Class could handle this kind of work based on what I know of coding. I've seen this come up many times and I think that having just one class that ran a few scripts could accomplish what needs to be done. It's a little more work but it would save hundreds of hours of building new archetypes and classes to cover all the possible permutations of classes that Gestalts can be.

 

[Nanan00]

Would you still retain the ability to apply archetypes though?

 

[RavenX]

Would you still retain the ability to apply archetypes though?

I would think so. If I am not mistaken, Archetypes are based on a list tag expression, having a script that wrote that expression for the two classes picked would make the archetypes of both classes available.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

The issue that has to be taken into account is "multiclassing" with gestalt classes. So at level 1 you are a fighter/rogue. At level 2 you can take cleric/sorcerer and you have to take into account when you take a PrC.

Using tags pulled from the classes to the gestalt class won't work. I already went down that path and it does not work when you have the above situation to take into account.

Though I have found a way to get it to work but I need to build some more "proof of concepts". Also nothing mentioned in this thread takes into account of "removing" two classes out of the leveling process. Otherwise your Fighter/Rogue/Gestalt is level 3 not level 1. This includes their BAB, saves, hit points, and skill points to be re-adjusted. But you can't totally remove the classes as without the right "classes.?" tag on the hero your fighter/rogue won't qualify for "Fighter" feats if HL does not know about the fighter levels.

I have several proof of concepts I did after I wrote the Mythic Playtest addon for the community. As that gave me some good knowledge about taking a single class out of the leveling process.

I have a currently working "proof of concept" that about 80% works if you don't multiclass using gestalt. Currently it even supports two casting classes and should have no issues with archetypes. I have not tested it yet with archetypes but in theory it should work.

I went through more of this concept on the d20 forums earlier this week actually.

Every few months people ask about this and give it a try. The truth is if you are not a very experienced editor with HL then this is NOT the project to start with. You will just get frustrated trying. This is nothing like what you normally do in the HL editor like new feats or classes. This is forcing HL to do stuff it was never meant to do. Why this is possible its not where you want to start.

 

[Dianae]

The issue that has to be taken into account is "multiclassing" with gestalt classes. So at level 1 you are a fighter/rogue. At level 2 you can take cleric/sorcerer and you have to take into account when you take a PrC.

That puts a little more succinctly what I was trying to say earlier, and had a long-winded post that got lost due to a power out, I guess for the better, though.

 

[RavenX]

That puts a little more succinctly what I was trying to say earlier, and had a long-winded post that got lost due to a power out, I guess for the better, though.

Gestalts are by their very definition "Multiclassed". The method is basically identical to what a character in 2nd edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons would do to become a multiclassed character. You're taking two classes and effectively gaining levels in both classes at the same time. When I read Unearthed Arcana, my impression was that the DM shouldn't allow players to take more than two classes and do this, nor were the classes meant to come from the same category (For instance, Fighter/Wizard is ok, but Sorcerer/Wizard is a clear conflict of interest in Gestalt. The point of the Gestalt option was to give a weaker class like Wizard or sorcerer better hit dice and save options).

However, to address the concern that has been shown about taking a second class... make the Gestalt class non-unique, which lets the user add it more than once. As it is, you have to add class levels of base classes more than once anyway. Each time a level in Gestalt gets added, the user would choose which classes are gestalted together. I still think it could be done with just one class instead of doing every single possible permutation out there.

 

[Dianae]

Gestalts are by their very definition "Multiclassed". The method is basically identical to what a character in 2nd edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons would do to become a multiclassed character. You're taking two classes and effectively gaining levels in both classes at the same time. When I read Unearthed Arcana, my impression was that the DM shouldn't allow players to take more than two classes and do this, nor were the classes meant to come from the same category (For instance, Fighter/Wizard is ok, but Sorcerer/Wizard is a clear conflict of interest in Gestalt. The point of the Gestalt option was to give a weaker class like Wizard or sorcerer better hit dice and save options).

Actually, Sorcerer/Wizard was one of the listed "particularly potent" combinations of classes in Unearthed Arcana. There is nothing explicit in UA that says that you have to keep the same classes throughout all twenty levels, in fact, it does have rules regarding prestige classes. (only one prestige class at a time and no gestalt PrC's)

This is a gray area between RaW and RaI.

The closest thing to PrC's in 2e were Kits which were chosen at first level, and if I recall correctly, your multi-class was chosen at level 1 and locked in. it just was beyond complication for the Fighter/Thief Elf to dip into the arcane and suddenly become a Fighter/Mage/Thief.

Third Edition opened the multiple class doors wide open, by allowing you to play a charcter that was lvl 1 in every class, your character would be an inefficient and underpowered build, but it was possible.

I am contemplating running a Pathfinder Campaign w/Gestalt, and While I would rule of people being locked into the two classes, Rules as Written just say "Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics."

The caveats listed after that pertain to class features advancing at the faster rate(not stacked), spell lists/spells per day are kept separate, the aforementioned Prestige Class restrictions, and no variant classes with base classes.

However, to address the concern that has been shown about taking a second class... make the Gestalt class non-unique, which lets the user add it more than once. As it is, you have to add class levels of base classes more than once anyway. Each time a level in Gestalt gets added, the user would choose which classes are gestalted together. I still think it could be done with just one class instead of doing every single possible permutation out there.

Actually, something similar to this is what ShadowChemosh did with his beta released Mod. It is still in beta right now, but works in a similar matter.