M&M 3rd ed. Deflect

[d20Maverick]

I think there may be a bug in the Deflect power. I am trying to assign a Deflect to a PL12 character, but HeroLab is telling me that it is limited to 11 ranks by power level. Then I opened up the "Star Knight", who has a Deflect 12 power and converted him to a PC, and was told that HIS Deflect ranks were limited to 8 by power level.

To the best of my knowledge, the Deflect power does not stack with anything, so is this a bug, or did I miss a piece of errata somewhere?

Update: Deflect is trying to stack with the character's Toughness, presumably because it is considered an active defense. It should ONLY be worried about power level caps, as far as I can see from both M&M 3e and DC Adventures.

 

[Shadowchaser]

I think there may be a bug in the Deflect power. I am trying to assign a Deflect to a PL12 character, but HeroLab is telling me that it is limited to 11 ranks by power level. Then I opened up the "Star Knight", who has a Deflect 12 power and converted him to a PC, and was told that HIS Deflect ranks were limited to 8 by power level.

To the best of my knowledge, the Deflect power does not stack with anything, so is this a bug, or did I miss a piece of errata somewhere?

Update: Deflect is trying to stack with the character's Toughness, presumably because it is considered an active defense. It should ONLY be worried about power level caps, as far as I can see from both M&M 3e and DC Adventures.

EDITED:

Looking over the text, it may be that Deflect is intended to be like an area effect attack, limited by PL without regards to Toughness. Personally, i've been allowing it to trade off with Toughness to allow player characters with lower Toughness checks to get more benefit from it. I'll check with Jon L and see which is correct.

 

[Shadowchaser]

Just checked with Jon Leitheusser, and Hero Lab is correct.

Deflect plus Toughness cannot exceed PL times two. In other words, it cannot exceed your maximum Dodge or Parry value.

 

[d20Maverick]

Just checked with Jon Leitheusser, and Hero Lab is correct.

Deflect plus Toughness cannot exceed PL times two. In other words, it cannot exceed your maximum Dodge or Parry value.

Really? That makes Toughness-shifted characters, such as battlesuits, poor candidates for having Deflect, then. Or at least, poorer than someone who is defense-shifted. That seems odd to me. Thanks for checking on it.

 

[Shadowchaser]

Really? That makes Toughness-shifted characters, such as battlesuits, poor candidates for having Deflect, then. Or at least, poorer than someone who is defense-shifted. That seems odd to me. Thanks for checking on it.

It's balanced the same way as someone who 'Deflects' by simply having a high Dodge or Parry ability. Keep in mind that the Deflect power is basically the same as adding the 'Ranged' extra to one of your Defense traits. It only works for an active use of the defense, but that balances for being able to use it to protect other people and intercept attacks not aimed directly at you.

So yeah, Toughness-shifted characters like The Thing or The Hulk wouldn't be deflecting attacks anyway, they'd be enduring them. A Defense-shifted character, like Longshot or Luke Skywalker, would use their defense abilities to avoid damage instead.

 

[d20Maverick]

I'm not so sure. The Thing and the Hulk often knock things away that were thrown at them, which would be a form of Deflect. Also, I'm looking at someone more like Iron Man, who would rely on his armor. The armor is manuevarable, true, but the armor is tough enough to take a beating (i.e. Toughness-shifted). In Iron Man's case, he uses his repulsors to deflect stuff all the time, so it's annoying that he can't have a Deflect at power level as it states in the book (DCA p. 95, M&M3e p. 105). It also puts the lie to the line "and may be able to more effectively defend yourself, depending on your rank." from both books, because your Deflect cannot be any better than your defenses unless your defenses are below caps. Especially since Deflect requires a standard action (meaning no attacks), it really doesn't make sense that it should be balanced by Toughness.

This is more a gripe than an argument, if the line developer says that Deflect is balanced by Toughness as far as levels go, then that's the way it is. That doesn't mean we have to like it or agree with it, though.

 

[Paragon]

Its hard to see that any other way would be game balanced.

 

[d20Maverick]

Its hard to see that any other way would be game balanced.

Limiting Deflect to power level and requiring a standard action (as stated in both books), thereby preventing the character from making any attacks, isn't balanced already?

 

[Shadowchaser]

I'm not so sure. The Thing and the Hulk often knock things away that were thrown at them, which would be a form of Deflect. Also, I'm looking at someone more like Iron Man, who would rely on his armor. The armor is manuevarable, true, but the armor is tough enough to take a beating (i.e. Toughness-shifted). In Iron Man's case, he uses his repulsors to deflect stuff all the time, so it's annoying that he can't have a Deflect at power level as it states in the book (DCA p. 95, M&M3e p. 105). It also puts the lie to the line "and may be able to more effectively defend yourself, depending on your rank." from both books, because your Deflect cannot be any better than your defenses unless your defenses are below caps. Especially since Deflect requires a standard action (meaning no attacks), it really doesn't make sense that it should be balanced by Toughness.

This is more a gripe than an argument, if the line developer says that Deflect is balanced by Toughness as far as levels go, then that's the way it is. That doesn't mean we have to like it or agree with it, though.

Generally when the Hulk knocks something aside that isn't at range. It can simply be an active use of Dodge or Parry, a description of a really high toughness save roll, or even an Instant Counter using strength to counter an incoming power.

Not every instance of someone knocking something aside or intercepting a power is "Deflection."

And no, you don't have to agree with it or like it, I certainly wouldn't call the cops if you house-ruled it a different way. I have my own 3E house rules in place.

I'm just clarifying how things work in the Rules as Written, and how they apply to Hero Lab.

 

[Shadowchaser]

Limiting Deflect to power level and requiring a standard action (as stated in both books), thereby preventing the character from making any attacks, isn't balanced already?

Apparently no. People are normally required to use a standard action to perform Active Defense with Dodge or Parry as it is, and they're offset by Toughness the same as Deflect.