M&M 3rd ed. Defenses Power Level Cap?

[Omphaloskeptic]

I'm new to M&M 3e (Making characters; haven't actually played it yet), so I figure I'm doing something wrong or misunderstand the rules, but in a PL10 game, it should be valid for a character to have Dodge/Parry 8, Toughness 12, right?

'Cause every PL10 character in my Hero Lab either gets capped by the trade-off or actually generates a validation error when any defense goes over 10. Yes, even the characters that came with the download (Battlesuit.por, Construct.por, etc.). I pull up a New Portfolio, set Agility to 8 then put 4 points into Dodge, and Hero Lab shows 10/12 for the stat with a Trade-off warning. All with 0 Toughness and no other defenses.

Is this a bug or what?

 

[jbearwillis]

Not sure why it's doing that? I have characters I have made and just made to test your problem out and it doesn't throw an error for me on any of my characters that I have made on old or new characters. You might send in a request for help or put a portfolio of the character up on here that you made, and I will download it and take a look at it in my hero lab.

Question: are you just seeing the purple arrows beside the toughness or are you seeing the " ! " in a red diamond at the top right. If your just seeing the arrows beside the toughness when you have a Dodge/Parry of 8 and a Toughness of 12, then your fine - Hero lab is showing you that you traded off and you can't have your Dodge/Parry any higher then 8 - if your toughness is 12, if you make either Dodge or Parry a 9 then Hero lab will throw an error.

 

[Insaniac99]

Check the settings on the Hero, maybe the "Do not allow PL trade offs" option got checked?

I may be confused on your exact error, if that doesn't fix it maybe you could save and upload a portfolio to check ourselves?

 

[Omphaloskeptic]

Hmm. Experimenting with the program today I am unable to generate validation errors that aren't correct, so that was probably just me. What I do still get, though, is the purple up-down Trade-Off error on any defense over 10 -- no matter the value of other defenses. This happens with Character Settings at "Game Default" and even on the sample characters.

I can deal with this Trade-Off arrow -- character sheets and stat blocks don't even show it -- but it's not supposed to be there, right?

 

[jbearwillis]

Yes, they are suppose to be there. It's to show you that the program automatically corrected the trade-off, so you now know and are aware they can only go so high before you throw an error of going over. It's a helping tool only. It's not an error message, just a help tool.

Hope that helps explain it for you.

 

[Omphaloskeptic]

Yes, they are suppose to be there. It's to show you that the program automatically corrected the trade-off, so you now know and are aware they can only go so high before you throw an error of going over. It's a helping tool only. It's not an error message, just a help tool.

Hope that helps explain it for you.

But that can't be right.

Are you saying that any trait over 10 is supposed to be flagged with the message "This trait is too high for the current power level?"

'Cause it's not. A character with 14 Toughness and 0 Dodge/Parry should not get that message -- that's simply not too high for the current power level. Read similarly for effects. Damage 12 (which gets the trade-off arrow) is fine for PL10 so long as your attack bonus is +8 or less.

I'm not saying the trade-off arrow is an error message; I'm saying it's in error.

 

[jbearwillis]

By the rules it is, But you are allowed to trade-off between the linked Characteristics, if your gamemaster allows you to.

The image, I have posted is showing that 12 is to high for the power level so Hero Lab automatically tries to correct for the difference. The arrows and message isn't an error but a message that my toughness trait is to high for the power level so it adjusted it for me. So if I tried to raise my Dodge or Parry above 8, it will through a real error in the upper right hand side of the screen. Trade-offs are not always allowed. Some GM's don't allow a player to do that, hero lab does that to try and adjust the traits for you when it is allowed and shows you that it did, is all it's doing, but by the rules it is to high for the power level it self, but the rules allow you to trade-off if your GM allows you to. It's not a given.

Does that help explain it to you. As long as you don't have the error showing up in the right hand corner, your fine. If it does show up just click the diamond shape with the ( ! ) in it to see what's wrong with the character, if it's not there your fine.

 

[Duggan]

No. The arrow indicates that you have a trade-off, nothing more and nothing less. And, if you're at PL 10, a 14 Toughness has a tradeoff. I do agree with you that they'd simplify things by amending that message to "This trait is too high for the current power level without a tradeoff" in case people miss the "Tradeoff" text at the top.

 

[Omphaloskeptic]

By the rules it is, But you are allowed to trade-off between the linked Characteristics, if your gamemaster allows you to.

By the rules what is? If you are saying that by the rules any value over PL is too high, you are wrong. At least by the rules in my copy of 'Mutants & Masterminds Deluxe Hero's Handbook.'

Power Level is a value set by the Gamemaster for the series as a whole. It places certain limits ... Power Level imposes the following limits: ...

• Dodge & Toughness: The total of your hero's Dodge and Toughness defenses cannot exceed twice the series power level.

...

Note that the averaging effect of power level ... allows for a measure of "trade-off." For example, attack bonus and effect rank added together cannot exceed twice the series power level, but this does not mean the two traits must themselves be equal, or that neither can be greater than the series PL...

The GM may want to keep an eye on combinations that swing wildly toward one side or another...

(page 25-26)​

This is exactly counter to the "This trait is too high for the current power level" message Hero Lab gives.

The image, I have posted is showing that 12 is to high for the power level so Hero Lab automatically tries to correct for the difference. The arrows and message isn't an error but a message that my toughness trait is to high for the power level so it adjusted it for me. So if I tried to raise my Dodge or Parry above 8, it will through a real error in the upper right hand side of the screen. Trade-offs are not always allowed. Some GM's don't allow a player to do that, hero lab does that to try and adjust the traits for you when it is allowed and shows you that it did, is all it's doing, but by the rules it is to high for the power level it self, but the rules allow you to trade-off if your GM allows you to. It's not a given.

I don't see an image. But I get trade-offs. And I appreciate that Hero Lab does that for me. But I didn't pay $30 for 'some GM's' house rules. The message "This trait is too high for the current power level" is flat wrong and very confusing to a new GM -- especially one as thick as I am.

Does that help explain it to you. As long as you don't have the error showing up in the right hand corner, your fine. If it does show up just click the diamond shape with the ( ! ) in it to see what's wrong with the character, if it's not there your fine.

If I'm fine, I shouldn't be told "This trait is too high for the current power level" when it's not.

But thank you for your explanation. I don't want to come off as hostile, just argumentative.

 

[Omphaloskeptic]

No. The arrow indicates that you have a trade-off, nothing more and nothing less. And, if you're at PL 10, a 14 Toughness has a tradeoff. I do agree with you that they'd simplify things by amending that message to "This trait is too high for the current power level without a tradeoff" in case people miss the "Tradeoff" text at the top.

At PL10, a 14 Toughness does not have a trade-off unless you have more than 6 Dodge or Parry.

Maybe it could alert the user just before a trade-off is getting close, but a) Hero Lab just flags any stat over PL, regardless how much 'room' is left before PLx2, and b) Hero Lab handles trade-offs automatically and generates a validation report anyway! There's no need for the trade-off alert at all.

To say "This trait is too high for the current power level without a tradeoff" would imply that one is past the limit. That would be fine, but the limit is PLx2. I get the trade-off warning at PL+1.

It should be fixed.

 

[jbearwillis]

Well if you do feel that it needs to be changed or at least for a possible word change and if you would like to suggest that change, then you can use the link below to do so and see what comes of it.

http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=48331

And don't worry about coming off as hostile, I didn't get that from you. Frustrated maybe, but not hostile. LOL

 

[Duggan]

At PL10, a 14 Toughness does not have a trade-off unless you have more than 6 Dodge or Parry.

Maybe it could alert the user just before a trade-off is getting close, but a) Hero Lab just flags any stat over PL, regardless how much 'room' is left before PLx2, and b) Hero Lab handles trade-offs automatically and generates a validation report anyway! There's no need for the trade-off alert at all.

To say "This trait is too high for the current power level without a tradeoff" would imply that one is past the limit. That would be fine, but the limit is PLx2. I get the trade-off warning at PL+1.

It should be fixed.

I think we may just disagree with terminology here. Trade-offs are not intended to indicate a problem. They're meant to indicate that, because you have one value which is greater than the PL, the corresponding item has a lower upper limit. So, the moment you have 12 Toughness on a PL 10 character, you are doing at +2 Toughness tradeoff whether or not you ever buy up your defenses. It got added back in 2E because people got confused when a tradeoff forced such a lower upper value. Now, it confuses people who think it's an error instead of a helpful note.

Incidentally, there are a few corner cases where trade-offs do cause an issue within the system, but mainly in 2E (they've done bug fixes on the 3E material). Namely, there are calculated values, AtkDiffDC and AtkDiffAtk that are only updated correctly in the case of a Tradeoff. Scripts which rely on them may result in bad validations.

 

[Omphaloskeptic]

I think we may just disagree with terminology here. Trade-offs are not intended to indicate a problem. They're meant to indicate that, because you have one value which is greater than the PL, the corresponding item has a lower upper limit. So, the moment you have 12 Toughness on a PL 10 character, you are doing at +2 Toughness tradeoff whether or not you ever buy up your defenses. It got added back in 2E because people got confused when a tradeoff forced such a lower upper value. Now, it confuses people who think it's an error instead of a helpful note.

Incidentally, there are a few corner cases where trade-offs do cause an issue within the system, but mainly in 2E (they've done bug fixes on the 3E material). Namely, there are calculated values, AtkDiffDC and AtkDiffAtk that are only updated correctly in the case of a Tradeoff. Scripts which rely on them may result in bad validations.

The message you get on rollover is unambiguous and incorrect. "This trait is too high for the current power level" is simply not true until an effect or defense is at PLx2.

So fine: have the trade-off arrow show up, but have it say "This trait's level may affect [corresponding trait]'s maximum level." Or don't have it at all. I think it would be less cruel to be a bit ambiguous to new players than actively misleading.

 

[mirtos]

I'm not new to HeroLab, but I am new to M&M. I dont see the rollover on mine. I've tried multiple ways to get it. Is there a setting? I do the the up and down arrows you all talk about, but i dont see any rollover.

FWIW, I'm using the mac version, latest version.

 

[Omphaloskeptic]

I'm not new to HeroLab, but I am new to M&M. I dont see the rollover on mine. I've tried multiple ways to get it. Is there a setting? I do the the up and down arrows you all talk about, but i dont see any rollover.

FWIW, I'm using the mac version, latest version.

On the Abilities tab under Defenses -- when you increase, say, Fortitude to 11 or higher (assuming you are making a PC at PL 10) a purple up-down arrow appears to the right of the grey, parenthetical abbreviation of the root stat. When you 'mouse-over' or 'rollover' that purple arrow and hover, a popup error message appears.

 

[mirtos]

On the mac version (again, at least for me), I see the purple up/down, but I dont have the rollover/mouse over effect.

 

[Lantalia]

On the Abilities tab under Defenses -- when you increase, say, Fortitude to 11 or higher (assuming you are making a PC at PL 10) a purple up-down arrow appears to the right of the grey, parenthetical abbreviation of the root stat. When you 'mouse-over' or 'rollover' that purple arrow and hover, a popup error message appears.

The popup is _NOT_ an error message and is correct. PL sets a soft cap for these traits, when you can only exceed that cap via a tradeoff, the message is that you are doing so.