Custom output

[Nitroexpress]

I just gotta say I was really disappointed with the custom output. When I first heard about it I imagined the old wotc 4e(havn't used the new web based one) character creator where I could go in and alter the placement of things on the sheet. No need to look at all three descriptions of armor proficiency but still have the skills I'm not used to explained...

Even though I will continue to need to spend more time writing important information down (kinda making this program pointless) I am happy with windows scrolling on smaller screens. I can actually play my wizard on my netbook!

But seriously... with all the inaccurate/redundant/missing info on the characters sheets the ability for us the non coders to change this would be a nice selling point.

 

[rob]

Hero Lab supports a large range of game systems, and every gamer has a different idea of what the "right" character sheet design happens to be. Look at how many different character sheets have been produced by various third party companies over the years, let alone all of the custom sheets created by fans. Regardless of what we did, some would like it and others would hate it. So the best solution is to give users the power to create their own. Yes, there is some learning curve involved, but the mechanism uses a well-established standard that many people are already familiar with.

At first, this will be frustrating, since you want something *now*. However, after a little while, a number of users will put together some custom sheets and share them. Once that occurs, you'll be able to use those sheets or tailor one you like to your own purposes.

 

[Nitroexpress]

so its a bad idea to allow people to move around & alter what info is put on their character sheet as a feature of this program? I don't see how the "theres to many systems" argument works for this. Every character sheet for every game is broken down into sections, is it that hard to be able to simply move one of those sections?

And for the *now* part.. I've been using hero lab since Feb. 2010 and I'm still amazed you guys can't do something that Wotc had in there character generator and lets face it your MUCH better then them with software. Thats why I am so disappointed.

 

[blzbob]

I think what he's referring to is that Hero Lab is meant to handle more than just Pathfinder stuff. I don't know how much you've played other systems, but there are a lot of differences.

I am hoping that someone puts together a really good sheet though. My biggest two gripes are the way the weapons are listed and the amount of information for feats and special abilities.

 

[Kinnakeeter]

The thing is, you need a separate program to even re-arrange the data to your liking. Yes, the sheets are different, but that should have been taken into consideration. I started with this program since only 3.5 was offered and they were working on WOD. It wasn't a good sheet then and is even less so now considering that we're pretty much doing the work for them to just get a sheet that's usable.

 

[Colen]

Adding a "drag and drop" interface to allow people to customize their character sheets is a great idea, but unfortunately with so much other stuff on our plate right now (getting new Pathfinder content added, working on the mac version, etc) we didn't have time to make that a priority for Hero Lab 3.7. Not only that, a GUI drag and drop solution would potentially take weeks or months to implement well, especially when it has to work well for all game systems.

So our choices were either to delay Hero Lab 3.7, potentially for months, or release the current solution that many people will be able to use now, along with fixing many of the bugs that have been affecting people for the last few months. We can then evaluate how people use the current implementation of custom output for a while before deciding how much further we should go with it.

 

[Cullyn]

On that score, and not trying to be negative, but being someone who has written a web page or two in my time (though by no means an expert, not even close), I was able to follow the instructions in the user manual to at least create the menu item needed to save the customized sheet using the example XSL for Pathfinder.

That said, I honestly believe that the customization needed to create the custom output XSL requires a much higher level of technical know-how that can reasonably be ascribed to the typical user. While yes, it's not *difficult* in the strictest of sense to edit as it's just a glorified text file, I believe that Lone Wolf might be overestimating the abilities of their user base. As an IT professional I have a tendency to do this myself.

I don't think it's an unreasonable request to ask Lone Wolf to develop a single customized output option that matches (or at lease is a reasonable approximation of) the official character sheet from Paizo. It would be a completely unreasonable request to ask them to create a sheet customized for any individual's game. Additional customization beyond the official sheet, in my opinion, can demand the additional skills and knowledge because a baseline has been given.

Barring that, I don't believe that anything is going to come from this custom output option until someone with time, drive, and knowledge decides to create a Pathfinder-specific character output. At that point, we'll be at the mercy of that individual as opposed to Lone Wolf as I'm certain that person will be pestered endlessly to fix bugs and add various options. That said, if someone decides to take up that call, I'd be more than happy to help them beta the custom output. I'm afraid I just don't have the time to learn a new skill from scratch at the moment.

 

[NeoFax]

I am pretty positive Lone Wolf stated prior to release that the capability to create customized character sheets would be XML/XSLT based. So, why the disappointment when you received what they explicitly stated they were going to ship?

 

[Adam.Ormond]

If I could get my license to work on my primary desktop, I'd start working on a custom XSLT that was close to the Pathfinder "official" character sheet.

 

[Nanan00]

I am pretty positive Lone Wolf stated prior to release that the capability to create customized character sheets would be XML/XSLT based. So, why the disappointment when you received what they explicitly stated they were going to ship?

I was expecting something along the lines of "Yet another xml graphical generator" type of drag and drop. Or at least a base file that we could alter so any output via that style would stay that style and not require us to tweak every output file.

That said, I would much prefer the default output to look like a standard 3.5e/pathfinder character sheet that we are all use to.

 

[Cullyn]

It's not so much about what they did ship, it's more what they could have shipped, or for that matter what they still could ship.

It's fairly obvious that the folks at Lone Wolf are quite talented and very good at what they do. My opinion should in no way be interpreted as a negative comment toward them. I'm also trying to avoid anything that sounds too much like entitlement, such as "I pay my money every year for this product and it doesn't do everything I want it to do no matter what I was told!". Sadly, this is where I put many of the complaints I see on any forum.

However, simply because they stated what the format of the custom output would be, doesn't mean I'm not allowed to have an opinion because I think they could have done better. I don't believe they should have gone so far as the original poster and created a program simply to move blocks of text around, but I do think supplying an official-Paizo based output is within reason.

All in all though this is simply my opinion and you are in no way required to agree with me nor I with you.

 

[CapeCodRPGER]

So how easy is it to do custom sheets if you have no programing experence? I can't check it out myself due to Lone Wolf screwing up lic. during the update.

Morons.

 

[Nikmal]

So how easy is it to do custom sheets if you have no programing experence? I can't check it out myself due to Lone Wolf screwing up lic. during the update.

Morons.

You really need to chill out. Getting upset because you are having a problem with a license issue and then coming on here and calling them Morons is going to accomplish little, very little in fact. It is like going in to a restaurant and getting a steak that is slightly overcooked and then telling the server to call the Chef a Moron for doing so. I would really hate to eat the food you get back in return after doing so.

Lone Wolf just went out of it's way to screw your license up and not give you access to your software. That is what they wanted to do all along and screw you over. They WANT you to have access to it and will do everything that they can to give you that access... but coming on here and calling them what you did is NOT going to get this done faster.

 

[Nikmal]

They have a pretty decent tutorial for Custom output in Hero Lab if you go to the File/save custom output and then on the window that pops up click on the help button. It brings you to the tutorial from there. It is fairly decent and they give you some suggestions as to how to save the output and share the data that you create. So others can share too.

I am not a fan of the Custom output but know how busy Lone Wolf is at this point and what they are working with... so in turn I am at LEAST willing to work with them in trying out what they can give us right now.

 

[Kinnakeeter]

Adding a "drag and drop" interface to allow people to customize their character sheets is a great idea, but unfortunately with so much other stuff on our plate right now (getting new Pathfinder content added, working on the mac version, etc) we didn't have time to make that a priority for Hero Lab 3.7. Not only that, a GUI drag and drop solution would potentially take weeks or months to implement well, especially when it has to work well for all game systems.

So our choices were either to delay Hero Lab 3.7, potentially for months, or release the current solution that many people will be able to use now, along with fixing many of the bugs that have been affecting people for the last few months. We can then evaluate how people use the current implementation of custom output for a while before deciding how much further we should go with it.

I get what you're saying with this and I understand it. I do think that offering the ability to customize our own sheets is going above and beyond what most people offer. The point I was trying to make in the character sheet thread and will try to clarify more here is that I really don't care if I can customize the output at all; I just want to be able to use what is available. The output that "comes with" the software is simply badly done and could be tightened up much better. In fact, if, as someone suggested upthread, it looked more like the Paizo sheets I'd be happy. Delighted even.

When skills get bumped over to page three, feat descriptions get cut off, and weapons lists end up on back pages, it's not a useful sheet. That is all I'm asking for. Customizable options are lovely, and really, are something you didn't have to offer, but you did and I'm grateful - but I'd have been happier if I could use the program defaults without having to resort to using a sheet someone else had to create. I love HeroLab except for that one issue. I mean, after all, it is, basically, a character sheet generator for the most part or at least, it started as that. I've never had any problem with anything else you do and in fact love that the program is so easy to use.

As far as delaying software goes, I've been hearing that for years, too, and realize how overworked you are. I do understand how frustrating that is, but my concern is that you've had time since the 3.5 version started to clean up what you offer as a default output and it hasn't happened in spite of customers asking for changes. I'm not asking for the world; I just want something I can read and use effectively in game.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

I'll start by saying that my experience with LoneWolf has been almost completely positive. I have no idea how you guys have managed to keep up with the Paizo releases and still manage to help us out when we're stuck on something in the editor. Not only that, you actually coach us through the process of making our custom content rather than just fixing it for us. Of course, that's good for you in the long run - if we learn to do it ourselves it (eventually) takes less of your time. Probably . But still, I think it's awesome.

I'm also happy that it's now possible to make custom sheets, though I'll likely never get into that end of it myself - gaming is very much a hobby for me, and I rarely use the printed sheets anyway.

All that said, I would LOVE for the default sheet to look like the standard Paizo character sheet rather than the current version. You can't please everyone all the time, but that hasn't stopped one game designer after another from putting out their generic sheets. Since HL is the official Pathfinder character generator it seems to me that it should default to the official Pathfinder sheet.

 

[icelator]

This is a really good feature that given some time I'm sure some people will post their own stylesheets.

However there are two problems:
first I saved and xml output of a character and without making any changes I tried to load it back in and it said there were errors and it couldn't be loaded. the error in the log is

Error reading specified file. Please verify the file exists and is a valid Hero Lab file.

why have xml listed under the file types if it's not going to work?

Next the xml is lacking information, my fighter doesn't have his starting feats (the ones automatic for a fighter) only the chosen ones. specifically the armor proficiencies and such. I know it's well known that a fighter has these but the point of a character sheet is too have all of the information in front of you for quick reference.

 

[Adam.Ormond]

This is a really good feature that given some time I'm sure some people will post their own stylesheets.

However there are two problems:
first I saved and xml output of a character and without making any changes I tried to load it back in and it said there were errors and it couldn't be loaded. the error in the log is

why have xml listed under the file types if it's not going to work?

So there's two formats of XML for HeroLab now.

The "Portrait" format, or POR file, is just an XML file. Prior to 3.7, you could save your Portrait as XML, and all it did was change the .por to .xml. This XML format can be written and read by HeroLab.

In 3.7, there's now another XML format. HeroLab apparently cannot read this format, only write it.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

The "Portrait" format, or POR file, is just an XML file. Prior to 3.7, you could save your Portrait as XML, and all it did was change the .por to .xml. This XML format can be written and read by HeroLab.

Yes why this is XML it is really a portrait file and is meant to be loaded/saved by Hero Lab only. Its why it was NOT given a XML name as why it is XML you could not use it external of HL as it just has internal Thing IDs that allow the saved information to link to HL internal data sets. It is useless for external applications in other words.

In 3.7, there's now another XML format. HeroLab apparently cannot read this format, only write it.

This new feature is a true XML document that is meant to be used by external applications (ie XSLT or even a PHP program). It has full description for things and a full list of XML tagged information about your character. This can easily be used by an external application.

So that is my understanding of the two XML files that HL produces.

 

[Adam.Ormond]

The POR file is no less a "true XML document", although perhaps the more important aspect of your statement is "to be used by external applications". That's really the primary distinction between the two XML files. One's intended for use by Hero Lab. The other is intended for other applications to adjust the visual appearance of most of the Hero Lab data.