Custom NPCs in Campaign

[ronlugge]

I'm trying to figure out how to build custom NPCs in the campaign tool. Seems like something that should be easy, but instead is proving annoyingly difficult.

As an example, I built a trio of NPCs for a game a few weeks ago -- I called them cleric, thug (fighter-ish), and flanker (rogue-ish).

But if I want to import them to herolab, there's no way to even start -- it demands I select an ancestry, which basically loads an entire existing stat block for me.

 

[Sjmarshall]

I can customize NPCs for almost anything until it requires custom abilities. You need to create a new PC otherwise your options that I describe below will be severely limited in the permanent abilities modifications. Not sure why, but you have very limited modifications when creating a NPC or Monster. You can select a custom ancestry which will allow custom size, speed, hp, etc... Using permanent adjustments to set final values of stats, and custom weapons to create custom attacks. The only part I get stuck is with custom abities. If you have specific questions for modifying specific things just let me know. It's not the easiest, but it gets me what I need.

 

[Tarmor]

I thought the idea was to create Heroes in HLO, then put them into the Campaign Theater, not the other way around. HLO does the "bookkeeping" and CT is an add-on to connect GMs and Players.

 

[talsharien]

To be fair to LW, GM's guide which contains rules for Monster & NPC creation has not been released yet. We all have access to the free download which Paizo released last year detailing an early copy of that chapter, but this has not been implemented into HL.

I suspect that when GM Guide is released at the end of the month, LW will release a package which will expand our options for Monster and NPC creation (well I hope anyway lol).

 

[ronlugge]

I thought the idea was to create Heroes in HLO, then put them into the Campaign Theater, not the other way around. HLO does the "bookkeeping" and CT is an add-on to connect GMs and Players.

I'm talking as the GM, who wants to use it to track NPCs.

 

[ronlugge]

I can customize NPCs for almost anything until it requires custom abilities. You need to create a new PC otherwise your options that I describe below will be severely limited in the permanent abilities modifications. Not sure why, but you have very limited modifications when creating a NPC or Monster. You can select a custom ancestry which will allow custom size, speed, hp, etc... Using permanent adjustments to set final values of stats, and custom weapons to create custom attacks. The only part I get stuck is with custom abities. If you have specific questions for modifying specific things just let me know. It's not the easiest, but it gets me what I need.

Problem is I need to create a *new* NPC, not a customized variant of an existing one.

For example, two weeks ago I need a series of generic NPC thugs in varying flavors -- I quickly named them 'anchor', 'flanker', 'thug', and 'buffer'. My anchor was, basically, a tank: there to take damage and die and buy time for the rest of the enemies to manuever into position 'on screen'. Flankers were rogue types, designed to introduce the importance of feint and harrass with mobility. Thugs were my main damage dealers. And of course, the buffer was a cleric to shed some blessings, magic weapons, and then fleet step the hell out of trouble.

I used the NPC creation rules to come up with this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16cbOduqrVlFaCw6ruSAb3swIUHAhS4H8tHGhTBWCatE/edit?usp=sharing

I'd _love_ to use the HLO campaign tools to run my fights, they look awesome, and probably better than scratch paper. But if I can't add my custom NPCs to the battle, how am I supposed to run a fight there?

 

[Sjmarshall]

Problem is I need to create a *new* NPC, not a customized variant of an existing one.

For example, two weeks ago I need a series of generic NPC thugs in varying flavors -- I quickly named them 'anchor', 'flanker', 'thug', and 'buffer'. My anchor was, basically, a tank: there to take damage and die and buy time for the rest of the enemies to manuever into position 'on screen'. Flankers were rogue types, designed to introduce the importance of feint and harrass with mobility. Thugs were my main damage dealers. And of course, the buffer was a cleric to shed some blessings, magic weapons, and then fleet step the hell out of trouble.

I used the NPC creation rules to come up with this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16cbOduqrVlFaCw6ruSAb3swIUHAhS4H8tHGhTBWCatE/edit?usp=sharing

I'd _love_ to use the HLO campaign tools to run my fights, they look awesome, and probably better than scratch paper. But if I can't add my custom NPCs to the battle, how am I supposed to run a fight there?

What I see in that document you should be able to create no problem in HLO. Just create new PC. Select custom ancestry and set the values for that. From there go to Permanent Adjustments and Permanent Added Abilities. There are options there to change the values for the character. You can then use that character as your base and create copies and tweak as necessary. If you have additional questions, or if I'm not quite understanding what you mean please let me know.

 

[TheYsconator]

What I see in that document you should be able to create no problem in HLO. Just create new PC. Select custom ancestry and set the values for that. From there go to Permanent Adjustments and Permanent Added Abilities. There are options there to change the values for the character. You can then use that character as your base and create copies and tweak as necessary. If you have additional questions, or if I'm not quite understanding what you mean please let me know.

So in my case for example, I'm trying to create the |Caustic Wolf| from The Fall of Plaguestone. Using a custom NPC here seems a bit overkill, and does not even appear to fully work.

The 'overkill' part (having to skip over all kinds of boxes, like starting gold) is annoying, but not a problem per se.

However, what would the class of such a beast be? And even after picking just something and doing the rest with permanent modifications, creating a new NPC instead seems to be the way to go for such animals. However, these don't have a 'custom' ancestry (which I think is rather odd).

How'd you go about re-creating such monster in HLO?

 

[Sjmarshall]

Name the custom ancestry the name of the NPC. For Example, in Age of Ashes I created a Charu-ka Dragon Priest with a custom ancestry called Charu-ka Dragon Priest. When you create a NPC from the vault you'll see that the Ancestry is the name of the creature.

Regarding class, you won't need to select one because you'll be using the Permanent Adjustments and Permanent Added Abilities to set values for almost everything that isn't covered by the custom ancestry settings. The NPC will not be valid, meaning you'll have the red exclamation on the top right of the screen.

Here are some screenshots that might be helpful.

 

[dacoobob]

Campaign Mode updates have been coming quick and fast since they released the beta, hopefully a simpler method for custom npc/monster creation will be added soon.

in the meantime, by far the easiest way is to use Stand-Ins. from the Cast Members screen, click Add, then Create New, then in the Type drop-down menu select PC Stand-In. then you can type in the creature's attack bonuses, AC, HP, saves, etc directly rather than screwing around with building everything from scratch and adding a bunch of adjustments and overrides.

 

[Sjmarshall]

Campaign Mode updates have been coming quick and fast since they released the beta, hopefully a simpler method for custom npc/monster creation will be added soon.

in the meantime, by far the easiest way is to use Stand-Ins. from the Cast Members screen, click Add, then Create New, then in the Type drop-down menu select PC Stand-In. then you can type in the creature's attack bonuses, AC, HP, saves, etc directly rather than screwing around with building everything from scratch and adding a bunch of adjustments and overrides.

I agree if that's all you're worried about tracking are those basic stats. If you want all your abilities, spells, attacks, etc. managed in HLO or the campaign theater module then there's a way to accomplish that too. The only disadvantage to the Stand in is that it's for PCs only, so scripts won't work as well with that approach. In order to use the scripts and the resolve scene features you can create a basic NPC stand-in using what I described above if you don't want to spend the time creating the NPC with everything.

 

[dacoobob]

The only disadvantage to the Stand in is that it's for PCs only, so scripts won't work as well with that approach.

stand-ins are technically supposed to be for PCs only (for now), but if you create a "PC" stand-in on the Cast Members screen rather than the PCs and Players screen, you can use it in scripts just like any other NPC or monster cast member.

but you're right, stand-ins have some major limitations when it comes to special abilities. currently you can assign them Feats, but not spells or class abilities. for now i track any special abilities (like the Caustic Wolf's acid immunity and Howl) by writing them out in the Notes section of the stand-in, but i agree it's not ideal.

 

[Sjmarshall]

stand-ins are technically supposed to be for PCs only (for now), but if you create a "PC" stand-in on the Cast Members screen rather than the PCs and Players screen, you can use it in scripts just like any other NPC or monster cast member.

but you're right, stand-ins have some major limitations when it comes to special abilities. currently you can assign them Feats, but not spells or class abilities. for now i track any special abilities (like the Caustic Wolf's acid immunity and Howl) by writing them out in the Notes section of the stand-in, but i agree it's not ideal.

Good to know about the stand-in for cast members. Thanks for that tip!

 

[Illrigger]

OK, so I need to know if I am doing something dumb or there's just something missing here. This is my first time trying the campaign stuff, decided to give it a go with a patron and a few Apprentice accounts.

I am setting up for Age of Ashes, creating scripts for easy encounter deployment. I dig in and look around, it looks straightforward enough - add a fire mephit, etc.

Then I get to the first encounter with an actual NPC.

Cool, I will import him in from the Age of Ashes module I bought. He's not there. Ugh.
Fair enough, he's a level 2 human fighter. I go "Add NPC/Monster", and Human is not in the race list. Ugh again.
So, I try a stand-in PC, and there's no way to add gear so the attacks work but I can't roll damage. Ugh a third time.

So I guess I am expected to reverse engineer a basic stat block all the way into a real PC for every class-based NPC in the campaign, from blocks that for high level NPCs can take hours to do? There's really no other way?

 

[Sjmarshall]

Instead of reverse engineering look at the screen shots I provided in an earlier post on this forum. You can use a custom ancestry and set things like hp and speed with that. Then use the overrides to set the other stats and abilities. I've recently discovered that you can use the custom boons to create custom abilities if they aren't available through the overrides. It's much easier than trying to reverse engineer everything.

 

[Illrigger]

Instead of reverse engineering look at the screen shots I provided in an earlier post on this forum. You can use a custom ancestry and set things like hp and speed with that. Then use the overrides to set the other stats and abilities. I've recently discovered that you can use the custom boons to create custom abilities if they aren't available through the overrides. It's much easier than trying to reverse engineer everything.

Ah, I read that, but it didn't click. I will give it a shot, thanks for the response!

 

[rob]

A key part of the problem here is that the official PF2 rules for NPC creation are only releasing today from Paizo (as part of the Gamemastery Guide). We'll have that book available (and the NPC/monster rules) next Wednesday.

Along with the GMG release next week, we'll also be including some new capabilities that are not tied to the purchase of any add-ons. This should allow you to readily enter the assorted NPCs and monsters from Age of Ashes.

We had wanted to get all that stuff released today, but it's a little behind due to the crunch getting everything into place for group licensing.

In the interim, the approach suggested by @Sjmarshall is probably your best bet.

 

[dacoobob]

A key part of the problem here is that the official PF2 rules for NPC creation are only releasing today from Paizo (as part of the Gamemastery Guide). We'll have that book available (and the NPC/monster rules) next Wednesday.

Along with the GMG release next week, we'll also be including some new capabilities that are not tied to the purchase of any add-ons. This should allow you to readily enter the assorted NPCs and monsters from Age of Ashes.

Awesome, great to hear! How about the GM content pack for Age of Ashes? That will include all the NPCs and AP-specific monsters, correct? Can you give a very rough ballpark guesstimate of when that will release?

 

[rob]

Awesome, great to hear! How about the GM content pack for Age of Ashes? That will include all the NPCs and AP-specific monsters, correct? Can you give a very rough ballpark guesstimate of when that will release?

This is where we got ourselves into trouble in the past, so I'm not gonna give any estimates, as much as I would like to. What I can do, though, is very definitely confirm that adding the GM content is on the roadmap. And there's another very cool feature that dovetails closely with GM content, but I'm not yet sure which of the two will be implemented first.

 

[Illrigger]

That's great news!

As an aside to my earlier post, it's pretty obvious that the NPCs in this first adventure were made using pre-release rules. There's no way to "legally" generate them as PCs without fudging things via custom modifiers and adding feats and backgrounds that won't affect their combat oriented abilities (such as adding weapon familiarity to fill out the ancestry trait slot, even though they aren't using any weapons that benefit from it).

In other words, I don't envy the person who has to go through and make these guys for said GM content pack, but I will gladly pay you for one so I don't have to.