Custom Bloodline Balancing help

[TheNewProgrammer]

Hi all, last month I made a post about scripting a sorcerer bloodline. I finished creating it all, and now I need help to balance it. It is supposed to be for melee combat and similar to the hexblade from 5e. I also made some spells to go with it. Any opinions?

Swordbond Bloodline

Class Skill: Knowledge (martial).
(I had trouble thinking of a good skill, maybe perception?)

Bonus Spells: Arcane Magestrike* (3rd), (5th), (7th), (9th), (11th), (13th), (15th), (17th), (19th).(its a custom spell)
(I haven't created the other spells yet, maybe haste for the 3rd level spell?)

Bonus Feats: Arcane Strike, Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Two-weapon fighting, improved Two-weapon fighting, Greater Two-weapon fighting, improved initiative, lunge, Power attack, toughness, weapon focus, greater weapon focus.
(this bloodline gets feets at 4/8/12/16/18 instead of 7/13/19

Reduced spellcasting: You get this many spells per day instead.
1 — — — — — — — —
2 — — — — — — — —
3 — — — — — — — —
4 1 — — — — — — —
4 2 — — — — — — —
4 3 1 — — — — — —
4 4 2 — — — — — —
4 4 3 1 — — — — —
4 4 4 2 — — — — —
4 4 4 3 1 — — — —
4 4 4 4 2 — — — —
4 4 4 4 3 1 — — —
4 4 4 4 4 2 — — —
4 4 4 4 4 3 1 — —
4 4 4 4 4 4 2 — —
4 4 4 4 4 4 3 1 —
4 4 4 4 4 4 4 2 —
4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 1
4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 2
4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
(the character is doing melee combat and does not need as many spells)

Bloodline Arcana: You gain bonded weapon at no cost. It is the physical manifestation of the magic in your blood. Choose one simple or martial melee weapon with the light or 1-handed trait. This choice is permanent and cannot be changed. You are proficient with the chosen weapon in addition to the regular weapon proficiencies of a sorcerer. This weapon uses your charisma bonus in place of your strength for attack and damage rolls made with this weapon.

While wielding this weapon, or the weapon is in your possession, you gain the following benefits:
Your base attack bonus increases to 3/4th.
You gain +1 hp per level of sorcerer you have.
You may cast spells with a material focus and or somatic components as if you were not holding the weapon.
You can cast sorcerer spells while wearing light and medium armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance and as if you were proficient in light and medium armor.

If a bonded object is damaged, it is restored to full hit points the next time the sorcerer regains his spells. If the bonded weapon is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week in a special ritual that costs 200 gp per sorcerer level. This ritual takes 8 hours to complete. This does not create a new weapon, merely returning it to your possession undamaged. If a bonded weapon’s owner dies, or the item is replaced, the object is destroyed.
(I think it is fine. Weapon using Cha instead of Str means you can go Dex/con/CHA instead of Str/Dex/con/Cha, and you need dex cause no heavy armor. I think the benefits are fine. 3/4th BaB is okish, same with d8 instead of d6 health. Without the third ability, you could not cast spells. The armor ability is a bit of an issue, but I think its fine as you can't afford medium armor at level one anyways)

Weapon Surge (Ex): Starting at 1st level, you can add a +1 bonus to attack rolls of a weapon you are holding for one round as an immediate action. This bonus increases by +1 at 6th level, 12th level, and 18th level. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
(I think this is fine as it can never bring you above the to-hit of a fighter of your level)

Powerful Bond (Sp): At 3rd level your bonded weapon gains the masterwork quality. At 5th level it becomes a +1 magic weapon. The same is true with +2 and 8th, +3 and 11th, +4 and 14th, and finally +5 at level 17.
(gives you a magic weapon, 'nuff said)

Weapon Fusion (Sp): At 9th level the swordbond sorcerer may fuse a wand, staff, or rod to his swordbond weapon by performing a ritual that takes 3 hours and 10 gp. If a single use item is substituted, the ritual takes one round and 0 gp. As long as the swordbond weapon is held, the wand, staff, or rod may be used, but only by the sorcerer. You may not fuse a wand or staff with a spell level higher than the highest spell level you can cast. Anyone familiar with the fused item can recognize it as if you were holding the item. If the swordbond weapon is unsummoned or destroyed, the fused item is returned.
(lets you hold a wand/staff/rod and your weapon at the same time. The gp cost is to make sure you can't do it with no gear at all, say in a prison)

Adamantine Form (SP): At 15th level, the magic suffusing your body protects it as if it were adamantine. You gain Dr 3/- as if you were wearing heavy adamantine armor. This ability does not stack with other forms of damage resistance from adamantine. Weapons you wield count as adamantine for the purpose of overcoming damage resistance.
(at 15th level, other bloodlines can fly or turn into monsters, so I think this is fine)

Ultimate Combatant (Su): At 20th level, whenever the swordbond sorcerer makes an attack as part of a spell he may make an additional number of attacks as if he was making a full attack action. These additional attacks do not have any of the spells benifits.
(just added a capstone)


I am also adding a series of spells called magestrikes. This is how this class is going to do melee spellcasting. Here is an example.

Arcane Magestrike
School evocation; Level bloodrager 1, magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, see text

EFFECT

Range melee
Target creature attacked
Duration instantaneous
Saving none

DESCRIPTION

The attack you make with arcane magestrike never misses but cannot critical hit.(as if magic missile) The attack deals an additional 1 force damage, plus an additional 1 damage at 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th level.

{b}Magestrike{/b}:This spell does not provoke an attack of opportunity to cast. As part of this spell make a single melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against a creature within range. It is a component for the spell. You may not modify this spell with the vital strike feat of any such feat. If the attack misses, the spell is wasted with no effect. The attack counts as magical. The weapon damage is weapon damage and any magic damage is magic damage.

(do you all think this is balanced? I want these spells to be a magical melee attack and I like this one)

 

[wdmartin]

I started addressing individual points; but they added up, and I think it might be better to talk about the overall picture.

Basically, you've reinvented the Fighter, only with magic. The archetype gives away comparatively little. The only cost the PC has paid is losing two spells per day from each level they can cast. That leaves them with exactly as many spells per day as a wizard. Of course they gain new spell levels one level later than a wizard, and get many fewer spells known. But that's a fairly minor restriction -- in my experience, wizards rarely take full advantage of the flexibility their preparation mechanic affords them. It's more common to see wizards who prepare a standard loadout of spells, much like a sorcerer, only with the option of changing it up if circumstances demand and they have enough time to do so.

In exchange for the reduction in spells per day, the PC gets a long list of benefits:

• Increased BAB
• Extra hit points
• A free magic weapon that scales with level, faster than the usual weapon enhancement progression
• Charisma to attack and damage, allowing them to pump save DCs, attack and damage with one stat
• Removed most of the usual casting complications (arcane spell failure chance, requirement to have a free hand for somatic/material components)

With judicious spell selection, you can gain bonuses that quickly let you surpass a fighter. For instance, True Strike for that tasty +20 bonus on your next attack roll. The action economy is not great at low levels (spending a round for a guaranteed hit the next round). But at higher levels Quicken Spell will let you do it in the same turn.

Meanwhile there are plenty of other spells that are similarly useful. Shield for +4 AC and immunity to magic missile. Bladed Dash for free movement plus an attack that adds your Charisma modifier as a circumstance modifier on the attack roll. With this particular class, they would effectively be adding their CHA twice on the attack roll in that case.

And let us not forget the many utility spells that a melee combatant would love to have: Invisibility, Fly and Dimension Door, to name a few key ones, making it substantially easier for your melee PC to get into position to make melee attacks.

I note that the PC doesn't actually gain proficiency with armor; just can act "as if proficient" while wearing it. I take that to mean that if I were building a PC with this bloodline and wanted heavy armor proficiency, I would need to sink three feats into it. Which I might well decide was worth it: a set of mithral full plate counts as medium armor, which the wording above would allow me to wear without suffering arcane spell failure.

This particularly doesn't make sense as a bloodline; this is squarely in archetype territory, considering that it modifies BAB, bonus feats, and spellcasting. If you look for roughly comparable types of modifications, you'll find them as archetypes (such as Feyspeaker Druid, Cloistered Cleric, etc).

You mentioned that you were going for something that feels like the hexcrafter warlock from 5e, and I think that's where you're getting things like the Charisma-to-hit-and-damage. That's a bigger deal in Pathfinder 1e than in D&D 5e. It's also worth noting that the 5e warlock mechanics are significantly more restrictive: you get two spell slots per short rest, plus a few at-will abilities depending on which boons you pick, and that holds true across the entirety of the warlocks career. A level 20 5e warlock gets two spells per short rest, the same as a level 1 warlock. They're higher level, sure, but no more of them.

Compare to the bloodline you've built here: those spells-per-day add up steadily. Also note that you get bonus spells-per-day for having a high Charisma modifier (which a PC of this bloodline absolutely will, since it's their key stat) and that Charisma is not capped at 20 in PF 1e. Indeed, you could start with a 20 in Charisma without too much difficulty, and pump it considerably over the course of the PC's life. Having a Charisma in the mid-to-upper twenties by mid-levels is easily doable. Late game you're looking at mid to upper thirties without too much trouble. A high level sorcerer with this bloodline is going to have the capacity to cast dozens of spells per day in addition to all the melee abilities.

Now, part of the beauty of this hobby is that each table can play the game however they like. So if this suits you and your table, then have a blast. That said, I don't think the power curve on this is in line with the other classes in the game.

 

[TheNewProgrammer]

Thanks for the response! I appreciate the criticism and will respond from top to bottom.

"I've reinvented the fighter but with magic" I don't think so, the SB is SIGNIFICANTLY more fragile. you have one less hp per level on average, worse bab, worse armor, and more stats to care about. maby bloodrager but with fighter instead.

"Not giving up too much" I think the trade-off is fair as it trades what makes spellcaster strong (spells, being in the back lines) for sub-par melee stats

"free magic weapon that scale above the curve" I based it on the wealth by level curve posted on d20pfsrd. It says the average PC will spend 1/4 of their income on weapons, and what I have is below that.

"Able to pump Cha to make your char overpowered" My opinion is that the SB is MAD (DEX,CON,CHA) even in 25 point buy you can only afford 16/14/16 (before racial) any other spread would be shooting yourself in the foot(IMO)
Also you can't just dump strength, because it is still used for CMD and stuff. Don't play SB if your dm like to grapple constantly

"utility spells" I didn't know about bladed dash, turns out its bloodrager/bard/skald only. True strike: At early levels I don't think you want to spend the spell slots to cast it, and at later levels ... I'll have to look into that. shield: I don't want SB to be allowed to cast shield. They have medium armor instead.

Invisibility, fly, and dimension door still trigger AoO. in a normal party the wizard could just cast them on the fighter, and you need your spells to do damage

"Heavy armor" even if you got heavy armor proficiency you wouldn't be able to cast in it. Second, if you ever lose your SB weapon, you can't cast in armor anymore, and you lose your other combat benefits. Third, I'll have to reword it to exclude mithril heavy armor, thanks for pointing it out.

"This seems like an archetype" Now that you pointed it out, so it does. I'll have to think about that.

You are right in pointing out that a warlock has fewer spells than sorcerer, and I'll consider that.

"starting with a high CHA" I considered it balanced because in order to get a high CHA you have to have a lower DEX/CON nearly invalidating the melee aspect of the SB. And sure, maybe you could bump up your CHA, but so could a fighter or Wizard (their stats respectively)

"Those spells add up" I may change the spell progression to be more like the magus, but the magus has a higher amount of spells per level per day than the SB. 5 vs. 4

I was always intending for this bloodline to be a Jack-of-All-Master-of-None situation. Worse at fighting than a full martial, worse at casting than a full caster, but able to do both somewhat effectively.

Anyways, thanks for your opinion, it helped me a lot!

 

[wdmartin]

"free magic weapon that scale above the curve" I based it on the wealth by level curve posted on d20pfsrd. It says the average PC will spend 1/4 of their income on weapons, and what I have is below that.

Oo. There's a problem. If I'm level 8 and my bonded weapon has been made +2 for free from my bloodline, that means I've got about 8,000 gp that I can spend on other things.

I could spend it on adding weapon properties, like Bane, Holy or Keen. Or on enchanting my armor. A +3 enhancement bonus on my armor would run 9,250 gp.

Or I could use it to buy a very nice Headband of Alluring Charisma. A +4 headband is only 16K, so half the cost of that has been made available by not having to pay for my weapon enhancements. For that matter, if I took Craft Wondrous Item I would actually have enough to pay for it flat-out, assuming there's enough down time in the campaign for 16 days of crafting.

How about a Robe of Arcane Heritage? That costs 16K gp, and it would make me four levels higher than usual for purposes of my bloodline. That's actually better than the Alluring Charisma headband in this case, I think.

The point is: giving out free weapon enhancements is effectively the same as giving the PC free wealth, because they can always buy other things instead and then have both the magic weapon and whatever shiny thing they bought.

My opinion is that the SB is MAD (DEX,CON,CHA) even in 25 point buy you can only afford 16/14/16 (before racial) any other spread would be shooting yourself in the foot(IMO)

I'm not convinced that you really need Dexterity on this PC; see below.

Also you can't just dump strength, because it is still used for CMD and stuff. Don't play SB if your dm like to grapple constantly.

The first-level spell Grease can give you a +10 bonus to your CMD versus grappling. It's also quite a good battlefield control spell. That one's available right from the very beginning. And of course there are other magical countermeasures against grappling. Freedom of Movement comes to mind, though obviously much later.

You are correct that Bladed Dash is not on the sorcerer spell list. I overlooked that.

So if a PC wanted that as this class, they would have to find some way to add it to their spell list anyway, such as playing as a Samsaran and choosing it as part of their Mystic Past Life spells, or just plunking down the gold for a Type III Ring of Spell Knowledge.

shield: I don't want SB to be allowed to cast shield. They have medium armor instead.

I mean, sure. Go ahead and ban it for this bloodline. But it's worth noting that there are roughly 1,800 spells on the sorcerer list. Going through and checking for ones that might interact badly with this bloodline would be pretty grueling.

Invisibility, fly, and dimension door still trigger AoO.

Only if cast in a threatened space and without making a defensive casting check. Most of the time it's pretty easy to avoid provoking by casting. A five-foot step would do it most of the time. But you could also just walk away and provoke the AoO in order to guarantee your spellcasting won't get interrupted.

... you need your spells to do damage

Only if you've built around doing damage via spells. It is 100% possible -- and not all that uncommon -- to build casters whose purpose is to exert battlefield control: setting the rest of the party up to succeed while taking away advantages the opposition might otherwise have.

Third, I'll have to reword it to exclude mithril heavy armor, thanks for pointing it out.

The only reason I mentioned the heavy armor proficiency bit is that you technically need heavy armor proficiency in order to wear mithral full plate without taking its armor check penalty, even though it counts as medium armor for all other purposes. There was an FAQ on that years ago.

That said, you could get much the same effect in other ways. I once built a sorceress for a level 20 one-shot who wound with a standing AC of -- let me check -- 50. Or 51 with Haste. Most of that was gear, but the key thing was taking a one-level dip in Oracle in order to pick up Sidestep Secret from the Lore mystery, which lets you add your Charisma modifier to your AC and Reflex saves instead of Dex.

"This seems like an archetype" Now that you pointed it out, so it does. I'll have to think about that.

Good, because as a bloodline it's way too much. My next question was going to be "What if someone uses the Crossblooded archetype to take both this bloodline and another one?" Doing it as an archetype would help prevent potential multi-bloodline shenanigans.

"starting with a high CHA" I considered it balanced because in order to get a high CHA you have to have a lower DEX/CON ...

A PC built around SB would definitely need a good CON. Minimum 14, preferably 16.

But I think you're overestimating the utility of Dexterity in this instance. The main point of the design is to make a melee sorcerer possible. Dexterity helps melee combatants with: AC, Reflex saves, Initiative and assorted combat-related skills like Acrobatics (for moving without provoking AoOs).

The best light armor grants a +4 bonus to AC. Chain Shirt, for instance. Well, so does Mage Armor. At very low levels when you have very few spell slots, it might be worth wearing a chain shirt. But by level 5 or 6, a single casting of Mage Armor is usually enough to last your entire adventuring day, at which point light armor is no longer relevant.

So medium armor is the next step up. The medium armors that provide only a +4 bonus are objectively worse than a chain shirt, in that they all have lower Dex caps and a higher ACP for the exact same AC bonus. So obviously not taking any of those.

No, if I'm going to get medium armor, I'm undoubtedly going straight to the ones that provide a +6 bonus. That's going to mean a breastplate. It's the only medium armor that allows a +3 max dex bonus and an ACP of 4, except Mountain pattern armor which is 50 gp more expensive. Choosing anything other than a breastplate would probably be an RP choice, or out of necessity (e.g., no way to buy/craft armor and using whatever we find in loot). Eventually, a mithral breastplate would increase its max DEX bonus to +5.

How much is that potential AC really worth to me? I could plan a character in the way you suggest -- figuring out with a way to start with 16 DEX, with the hope of eventually getting it up to 20 for a +5 bonus, probably via a belt. That would net a total of +11 AC from the armor (not counting enchanting it).

But if I do, I'm paying a pretty high cost. Higher starting scores cost a lot more, and the point of AC is to avoid getting hit. Well, I'm a caster. I have access to spells that can make me a whole lot harder to hit, or mitigate the effects of being hit. Mirror Image. Blur. Displacement. Blink. Stone Shield. Defending Bone. Stoneskin. Ice Body.

So, that AC is useful, sure. But I can easily accept a lower AC in exchange for greater benefits elsewhere. So I'm going to plan around eventually achieving a +3 bonus from dexterity, no more.

Let's see. How about a Halfling? +2 Dex, +2 CHA, -2 Strength. +1 AC for being small, which is nice. On the other hand, lower damage die on weapons because they're small, which is unfortunate on a melee build.

Hmm. Azata-Blooded Aasimar is a strong candiate. +2 DEX and +2 CHA, no racial ability score penalties. Darkvision. Acid, cold and electricity resist 5, which is handy. Outsider (native), so I'm immune to any effect which targets a humanoid specifically by creature type, such as Charm/Dominate Person. Glitterdust as a 1/day SLA. Yes, I think we have a winner.

So now I can allocate my ability scores. Assuming 25-point buy (which is what you mentioned earlier) I think I might go with 13 STR, 14 DEX (12+2 racial), 16 CON, INT 10, WIS 10 and CHA 18 (16+2 racial).

There's exactly one reason I didn't dump my STR down to 9, and that reason is: Power Attack. It requires STR 13. It's on my class list of bonus feats, but unlike a ranger, sorcerers have to meet the pre-reqs for any bonus feat they want off their class list. Being a melee type without the option to Power Attack is not great. So even though I'm going to be using CHA for to hit and damage, I have to have at least 13 STR.

In the meantime, 16 CON should help get me enough hit points that I can take a few hits. And since I get Charisma to hit and damage I'll hit like a tank. Ultimately, the best defense is a good offense: you can't hurt me after I stab you to death.

By the way, CMB checks are attack rolls. Were you envisioning the SB abilities pumping that?

Anyway, doing this, I think I've come around to agreeing that this is a MAD class after all -- not because of Dexterity, but because of Strength. And that is because of Power Attack and Power Attack alone.

If I was prepared to be a melee combatant without Power Attack, I'd go with STR 9/DEX 13/CON 16/INT 8/WIS 10/CHA 20 (on 25-point buy with the same Azata-blooded aasimar racial bonuses as above). I can live with a -1 penalty to CMD, and in the event that the GM enforces the carrying capacity rules I would just buy a donkey for 8 gp to carry most of my stuff. Having only 1 skill point per level is kind of a pain, but I could deal. And I'd put a level bump into Dexterity to even it out and then look for a +2 belt to get it up to 16.

I was always intending for this bloodline to be a Jack-of-All-Master-of-None ...

Thing is, what you intended may not line up with how the players use it once they get their hands on it. You're seeing a jack of all trades; I'm seeing a capable melee combatant who can pick from hundreds of different spells that might make them better at being a melee combatant. The reduced spells per day can be mitigated by maxing that Charisma as hard as possible for bonus spells, and with magic items like Pearls of Power.

If anything the biggest limiter I see on this is the action economy. If you're casting buff spells on yourself in combat, then there's a good chance you spend three rounds buffing and then the fight is over because the other PCs took care of it already. So I would focus spell selection on things with a very long duration that I can plausibly cast well before combat begins, and on spells that let me deal with complications. See Invisibility and Fly spring instantly to mind. As a melee combatant, I'm doing nothing if I can't locate/get at my enemy.

 

[TheNewProgrammer]

Thanks for the response. This convo has been helpful

point #1
I don't know why I didn't think of that. I'll change it to require gold or magic items to upgrade.

point #2 & 8
Your right in that I think you don't need to pump your dex up past 16. with sorcerer starting wealth that gives you a 17 at level 1 and a 19 at 3 (chain to bp) and I think this is good ac progression for early levels. As for buffing yourself, I just think doing a tag team wizard/fighter would be better. Fighter holds action, wiz casts spell, fighter attacks, and wiz starts blasting.

As for battlefield control spells, why would you play a SB at that point just play a sorcerer for the better spell slots.

Aasimar are always going to be broken

Power attack, I think I'll mod the prerequisites so you don't need strength.

I still think going below 17 ac at level 1 for a melee combatant is risky.

!!!-----\/
I might make it so the max bonus spells per level is 1 or something

#5
at that point the time expenditure is fine I think

#6
I think another sorcerer would be better at battlefield control with the extra spell slots, but if the SB wants to, I think its fine.

#8.5
I think multiclassing into Oracle for cha to ac is fine, either you are weak early game or you progress slower

#8.6
didn't know cmb was an attack roll, thanks.

#9
I think this issue so far is that I will be adding spells that have smaller effects, but disrupt the action economy. You don't need to make your weapon a magic sword if you can just make a magic attack.

I don't want the SB to be a self-buffer. We already have the bloodrager and warpriest. It is supposed to be more like the magus, but with less spell dps, but less fragility. That's where the magestrikes come in. They don't cost an AoO/Def cast, but in return, it deals less damage