Combat Manuever Bonus

[Globetrotter]

I just learned that CMB uses all feats and normal bonuses to attack in addition to the CMB bonus.... yes, I missed it. lol

So I am trying to see how this is more easily calculated. Presently, when I am looking at the character sheet my mind goes in loops trying to find out what the CMB is for that particular attack with that weapon type.

What would be the easiest way?

For example, a 5th level medium-sized fighter with a 16 str using a long short with weapon focus has a CMB of +8 (BAB 5, STR 3).

Now, HL shows the CMB properly, but if I am doing a quick maneuver calculation, I would mistakenly forget to add the +1 from weapon focus.

Hopefully, that is clear. What would be the best way to get the bonuses correct off the program? Should we just use the attack bonus from the weapon? Are there cases this would not apply? Help! I am running NPC's using the tactical consul and I want to make sure the bonuses are being properly added for my attack role.

Thanks

 

[Pezmerga]

I just learned that CMB uses all feats and normal bonuses to attack in addition to the CMB bonus.... yes, I missed it. lol

So I am trying to see how this is more easily calculated. Presently, when I am looking at the character sheet my mind goes in loops trying to find out what the CMB is for that particular attack with that weapon type.

What would be the easiest way?

For example, a 5th level medium-sized fighter with a 16 str using a long short with weapon focus has a CMB of +8 (BAB 5, STR 3).

Now, HL shows the CMB properly, but if I am doing a quick maneuver calculation, I would mistakenly forget to add the +1 from weapon focus.

Hopefully, that is clear. What would be the best way to get the bonuses correct off the program? Should we just use the attack bonus from the weapon? Are there cases this would not apply? Help! I am running NPC's using the tactical consul and I want to make sure the bonuses are being properly added for my attack role.

Thanks

I don't think Herolab currently accounts for weapon bonuses and weapons that can be used in maneuvers. Characters using a +1 Heavy Flail should (I believe anyway) get +1 to trip and disarm attempts but it doesnt show up that way in herolab as of now though. I am sure Mathias could shed more light on it than I.

 

[Globetrotter]

I don't think weapons provide a bonus, just allow it. It's hard to get the bonuses right, lol.

I wonder if there is a condition that can be added. Maybe it is not coded because it is a situational bonus....

 

[Pezmerga]

I don't think weapons provide a bonus, just allow it. It's hard to get the bonuses right, lol.

I wonder if there is a condition that can be added. Maybe it is not coded because it is a situational bonus....

Right. You get any bonuses to attack on maneuvers if applicable, but I am pretty sure enhancement bonuses only apply if you are using a weapon that can be used in the maneuver. Like a trip weapon for trip attacks would add its enhancement bonus to the CMB, at least thats how I read it.

 

[Mathias]

Remember that the Weapon Focus feat specifically adds a bonus to the attack roll for a weapon, and that Combat Maneuvers only incorporate the Base Attack bonus of the character. They don't pick up every attack modifier you get, so weapon focus does not apply to maneuvers.

The bonuses that some weapons apply to specific maneuvers is simply something I haven't had the time to implement yet.

 

[Globetrotter]

I can see how this would be difficult/time consuming to add.

I do want to point out that I just exported the stat block of the character and the CMB for specific attacks is calculated.

I reviewed the numbers and it looks like it takes into account many different feats that I selected, but not weapon focus.

See the stat block below. The trip should be +19 and not +18.

Str 16, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +8; CMB +11 (+18 Tripping); CMD 24 (26 vs. Disarm26 vs. Overrun26 vs. Trip)
Feats Fury’s Fall, Greater Trip, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus: Scythe
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Fury’s Fall When making a trip attack, add your Dexterity bonus to your CMB.
Greater Trip +2 to Trip, target provokes AoO when tripped.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Remember that the Weapon Focus feat specifically adds a bonus to the attack roll for a weapon, and that Combat Maneuvers only incorporate the Base Attack bonus of the character. They don't pick up every attack modifier you get, so weapon focus does not apply to maneuvers.

Unless that maneuver (ie Trip, Disarm, Sunder) uses the weapon. Then yes you do get Weapon Focus or even Weapon Finesse. So if you have Weapon Finesse and say a Rapier you get the bonus that your Dex is providing above your Str during a Disarm.

So you have a 10Str, 20 Dex and Weapon Finesse. You would get to apply a +5 Bonus to a Disarm CMB when doing a Disarm with a weapon finesse-able weapon.

In other news the Adjustment.user file that I want to release really soon as a community add-on will have this capability. As it is a very nice remember for players.

 

[Globetrotter]

Shadow,

I think you are making a good point. The bonuses are applying static bonuses and not taking into account having the appropriate weapon.

For a PC, I don't think this is a big deal as you know your bonuses pretty well As a DM, having the stats (or a reminder) is extremely useful.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Str 16, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +8; CMB +11 (+18 Tripping); CMD 24 (26 vs. Disarm26 vs. Overrun26 vs. Trip)
Feats Fury’s Fall, Greater Trip, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus: Scythe

This is a good example. If using the Scythe to trip, which one can as it is a tripping weapon, your CMB would actually be +19 due to Weapon Focus. The +18 value in this case is to attempt the trip with ones hands.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

For a PC, I don't think this is a big deal as you know your bonuses pretty well As a DM, having the stats (or a reminder) is extremely useful.

Yep in agreement. Though even as a player I found it is better for the sheet to have the numbers already crunched as their is often allot going on at a game session.

So my players have been playing with a set of adjustments that let them add in this bonus value to the weapon. The new adjusted CMB or CMD value is printed then with the actual weapon. I assume it will work for stat blocks, but its something I will specifically look at tonight.

Anyways you take the Adjustment and select a weapon. In this case your Scythe. Then you set the adjustment to +1 to take into account the +1 from WF. Then the weapon will read "Scyth Trip-CMB +19" in HL and the printed character sheet.

So you have to know the value to set the adjustment counter to, but so far my players have really like that it is reminds them of the value and auto-adjusts as they gain levels.

 

[Globetrotter]

What gets me is that the program is coded for it, but it doesn't display on the consul. Only the exported stat block.

Would this be difficult to add Mathias?

Edit.... It does show up... but not on the tactical consul. Pretty close... could we add it to the consul weapon description (the spot where you move your cursor over the sword and it give you close detail on the weapons).

 

[Globetrotter]

Thanks Shadow, great advice.

 

[Mathias]

Where does it allow weapon focus for maneuvers?

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Where does it allow weapon focus for maneuvers?

Under the Combat section for Combat Maneuvers.

Here is the important section of the CMB rules with the section highlighted.

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.

From the Unofficial FAQ we have James Jacobs confirming this use of the CMB.

Q: Since disarm, sunder, and trip are attack actions (not standard maneuvers like bull rush, overrun, or grapple), does the Weapon Finesse feat allow the fighter to add his Dex to his CMB for those specific attacks? Or would I need Agile Maneuvers no matter what maneuver I wanted?
A: (James Jacobs 9/25/09) Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and similar feats would only apply when you're attempting a combat maneuver with that weapon. For the most part, this would be limited to things like disarm or sunder or MAYBE trip. You wouldn't get this bonus to things like overrun, bull rush, or grapple that don't use a weapon attack as part of their requirements. Agile Maneuvers applies to EVERY maneuver every time. [Source]

Hopefully that helps and I agree that its another area of the rules you sort of have to read into it. Really wish they had put more examples like WotC did with 3.5 into the rules.

 

[Mathias]

This is going to take forever to implement. Everything that adds an attack bonus is going to have to be checked for whether it applies to CMB and modified to do so.

Every weapon is going to have to be able to display the stats for every maneuver (they'll hide the ones that don't differ from the base, but theoretically, you could have a weapon with different modifiers to all sorts of maneuvers, and if you have maneuver feats/abilities, that means every weapon needs to display that maneuver, whether it has its own modifier to that maneuver), and weapons are already pressed for space in their displays.

Do the two-weapon fighting rules apply here, too? I presume they're an effect, and they're mitigated by feats, so probably so.

Does this mean that the Grab ability only applies its bonus to the specific weapon that ability is applied to, or do they still get a bonus to all grapple attacks? (if for some reason you were grappling with another attack than the one that normally has the grab ability - you'd lose the no-AoO that grab grants, but do you retain the bonus?)

Does this essentially mean that if you're not carrying any weapons, the amulet of mighty fists adds to all CMB checks?

And what is with that ruling! It's just saying GM's Fiat! I can't code something that fuzzy into HL.



Sigh.
Added to my to-do list.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

This is going to take forever to implement. Everything that adds an attack bonus is going to have to be checked for whether it applies to CMB and modified to do so.

Yep in agreement here. Ran into the same situation when I started to modify each weapon to attempt to apply this. In the end I went with an adjustment that requires input from the player.

Every weapon is going to have to be able to display the stats for every maneuver (they'll hide the ones that don't differ from the base, but theoretically, you could have a weapon with different modifiers to all sorts of maneuvers, and if you have maneuver feats/abilities, that means every weapon needs to display that maneuver, whether it has its own modifier to that maneuver), and weapons are already pressed for space in their displays.

Yea space here is going to be a killer and don't currently have any good advice on a fix here.

Do the two-weapon fighting rules apply here, too? I presume they're an effect, and they're mitigated by feats, so probably so.

Correct yes they would also.

Does this mean that the Grab ability only applies its bonus to the specific weapon that ability is applied to, or do they still get a bonus to all grapple attacks? (if for some reason you were grappling with another attack than the one that normally has the grab ability - you'd lose the no-AoO that grab grants, but do you retain the bonus?)

My reading of this is that Grab is like the feat and provides a +4 bonus to ALL grapple checks the monster makes regardless of the attack. Though only the weapon with Grab gets to do the Grab special attack. That seems to be the most sane way of doing it.

Does this essentially mean that if you're not carrying any weapons, the amulet of mighty fists adds to all CMB checks?

Reading it RAW no it should only apply to Weapon Attacks like disarm and sunder. As Bull Rush and Overrun don't use weapons they don't get any bonus from weapon things including the Amulet.

And what is with that ruling! It's just saying GM's Fiat! I can't code something that fuzzy into HL.

LOL I am sorry but this really made me laugh. Not at you Mathias just the situation. As that is Paizo's really big stance lately is for an answer ask your DM. That is really helpful especially those playing PFS.

Sigh.
Added to my to-do list.

Sorry to ruin your Friday.

Though the above is why I finally went with an adjustment that requires some human input. It was nice when I did the AA to have those on each weapon, but their are so many things to take into account that it was not really correct. Their are SO many variables in coding it is going to be REALLY fun.

 

[risner]

This is going to take forever to implement.

Do the two-weapon fighting rules apply here, too?

lose the no-AoO that grab grants, but do you retain the bonus?)

Does this essentially mean that if you're not carrying any weapons, the amulet of mighty fists adds to all CMB checks?

I can't code something that fuzzy into HL.

I don't think it is as hard as you are worried. I added a bunch of these type things for the Adventure Armory using duplicated code that Shadow wrote. The code just updated the livename of the weapon to print CMx+Y where x is what it has a bonus and Y is the current CMx+whatever the weapon had a bonus currently.

TWF applies to all attacks and would apply to CMx rolls.

You wouldn't retain the bonus on grab if you are not using the grab weapon.

Yes AoMF is +x to all CMB checks but would be with the unarmed weapon only, so if you had +2 from AoMF and a weapon that is +2 the result is they are with different weapons and wouldn't interact. In other words "Unarmed +Y CMB" (which is +2 over CMB from AoMF) and "Sickle +Y Disarm" would not include the bonus from Unarmed.

I'm not sure it is as fuzzy as you are worried it is. ;-)