Arrays of more than 20.

[bshaw0313]

I've been using Hero Lab for quite a while now, and have just found out that epic levels are not supported at all. Total bummer. My playgroup enjoys going into ridiculously high levels.

I hopped into the editor and made new versions of every class that do not have the level cap at 20, even created an "Epic" archetype that adjusts attack and save progression for use after 20. You need to make a one time adjustment to account for the levels prior to 20, but it gets the job done.

The only issue I currently have is extrapolating abilities and such beyond level 20. I first noticed the issue with a Summoner class at lvl 21. The Eidolon companion type has an array for hit dice at levels, but this array only goes to index 19. Looks like this also happens to other classes, but I only got an error with the summoner class.

Anyway, since this array does not seem like it can be increased at all, I was wondering if anyone had any idea on how to use an eval script to replace these. I am going to mess around with it, but if anyone has an idea of how to start, it would be much appreciated.

 

[AndrewD2]

In general, while Pathfinder does support characters beyond 20th level, the general rules are they have to multiclass at that point. Pathfinder has no "Epic" levels to support. I don't expect to see it built until Paizo officially does something.

 

[bshaw0313]

This would fall under a houserule then. My group tends to only take levels in two classes max in order to stay "specialized". I don't expect Lone Wolf to make any changes to the pathfinder system, hence why I am trying to find a way to do it myself.

Worse case scenario I will have to use the authoring kit to create everything from scratch, but I really don't want to do that. For obvious reasons.

 

[RavenX]

In general, while Pathfinder does support characters beyond 20th level, the general rules are they have to multiclass at that point. Pathfinder has no "Epic" levels to support. I don't expect to see it built until Paizo officially does something.

Andrew,

Pathfinder Core Rulebook, pp. 406-7 provides the framework for base classes past 20th level, I believe these datafiles were originally adapted from the d20 version and made to fit Pathfinder, as even in the d20 files classes didn't go past 20th level either. This is just a lack of foresight error that has yet to be fixed. Pathfinder tells you how spell progressions continue and how powers should continue to scale, it just wasn't implemented. I'm not sure if it's been added to the to-do list, you'd have to talk to someone from Lone Wolf on that. I've even told them not to say the software supports epic level play because of the multiclass limitation. That's not true epic level play.

 

[bshaw0313]

I wrote up a script that "should" take care of the issues with advancement. The only problem now is this:

Attempt to access out-of-bounds array index '20' for array field 'CompHDArr'
Location: 'eval' script for Component 'BaseCompan' (Eval Script 'Companion Level Calculated') near line 65

There is actually a bunch of them, one for each array in the companion, but I didn't want to paste them all.

My problem now is trying to figure out where these scripts are located so that I can hopefully adjust them to not do anything if the index would be over 19. It looks like it is in 'BaseCompan', but I do not know exactly where that is. Time to dig around.

 

[RavenX]

They're embedded in the source code which you do not have access to. Some elements are hard coded and you cannot change them via scripts.

I learned this from building my own data file source code for different game systems. I built AD&D 2e based on a similar design to Pathfinder. I don't think you can modify the hard coded values at all without doing it via the source code which is why no one's made an epic level add on yet. It's a known issue that's been around for a long time now.

 

[bshaw0313]

Bummer. Well better to find that out now before I spend anymore time trying to do this. Thanks for the info Raven.

 

[RavenX]

The 2e files have shown me a lot about how the software works under the hood. And while I wish it were simple to fix without source code access, it's not. You could recreate the system but that's a ton of work and time. Especially considering how many supplements are out there that are already in the software as it is.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

The one solution that works is if you multiclass after level 20. So your summoner could take Fighter levels to get to level 21+ but they can't be single classed.

The other solution built as part of Pathfinder is to use Mythic rules. Mythic is what takes characters above level 20 in Pathfinder or you can even be low level and mythic.

 

[bshaw0313]

That's a good solution, and I've been trying to push it on the group. When the problem originally showed itself, I ended up finding the mythic handbook. While great, it seems the highest tier is 12, and my group tends to play into the 90 levels range. They enjoy the act of leveling up too much lol. Makes it really difficult to create worlds when you have lvl 90 creatures running around next to the village of lvl 1 commoners.

The summoner Eidolon won't increase beyond 20 still unfortunately. So even if they take levels in other classes, their Eidolon will be underpowered. Luckily it just means we have to use the old fashioned way (paper and pencil, shudder) to supplement what hero lab can't do.

 

[bshaw0313]

Wow. I just found the easiest solution ever.

Manually add hit dice, manually add adjustments, let the program yell all it wants about validation errors.

Can't believe I didn't try this first.

 

[RavenX]

That's a good solution, and I've been trying to push it on the group. When the problem originally showed itself, I ended up finding the mythic handbook. While great, it seems the highest tier is 12, and my group tends to play into the 90 levels range. They enjoy the act of leveling up too much lol. Makes it really difficult to create worlds when you have lvl 90 creatures running around next to the village of lvl 1 commoners.

The summoner Eidolon won't increase beyond 20 still unfortunately. So even if they take levels in other classes, their Eidolon will be underpowered. Luckily it just means we have to use the old fashioned way (paper and pencil, shudder) to supplement what hero lab can't do.

Mythic Helps but I'm not convinced its a full epic level solution. It feels a lot different in how it works. The arrays do need to keep increasing though, it was covered in the core book and that is something that needs to be fixed when time permits.

 

[Aaron]

Just a note that last update the number of rows in the spellcasting arrays was increased to 50, to accomodate the class templates from monster codex which can be applied to monsters of 20 or more HD. So that is one less barrier for epic stuff.

 

[RavenX]

Just a note that last update the number of rows in the spellcasting arrays was increased to 50, to accomodate the class templates from monster codex which can be applied to monsters of 20 or more HD. So that is one less barrier for epic stuff.

Aaron,

That helps slightly but we also need columns increased. I know past 20th level in the official rules you still get slots for 10th, 11th, etc level spells. These slots don't have spells but they enable you to apply metamagic feats to higher level spells. So that only fixes half the problem right now.