Another Database Question

[Viking2054]

Some of the other topic threads that involve the database, make it sound like there is one database containing all the realms you create. Is that correct, or is each realm you create its own unique database?

I'd prefer each realm be its own unique database myself. Makes things easier to keep separate, export, import, and possibly pass around to other GM's with the program if I wish to share my original content.

Also, You've talked about pointers to a "Main Realm" from a "Derived Realm". Is there any chance we will be able to establish our own pointers to other Realms of ours? As an example, if I populate one realm with a lot of characters in an initial realm and then create a totally different realm (different maps, town names, encounters, etc.) but would like to be able to use some or all of the characters I've put into another realm will I be able to establish a link or will I have to manually copy/paste the information?

Another database linking question. As an example, if I'm working on worlds for a futuristic Sci-Fi and space travel game. Can I create each world as a separate database and then set up links to a campaign database? It would be nice, if I want to, to be able to create a world and recycle it through multiple campaigns or game systems without having to alter the initial detail if it is set up game system independently anyway.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[EightBitz]

I believe one of the things on the to-do list is the ability to copy data between realms.

 

[Silveras]

There is one database with all of your realms in it.

The example referenced of "Main Realm" and "Derived Realm" is, I think, of sharing your own content from one of your Realms to another.

 

[Viking2054]

I'm not sure I like the idea of a single database with all my realms in it. I'll make do if that is what I have to do.

However, I'd appreciate it if they considered the possibility of multiple databases, at least as an option. I'd like to keep my Star Wars content in a separate database from my Fate Core content, my Dungeons and Dragons content, my Pathfinder content, my Shadowrun content, or whatever other game system I am playing. I don't want to accidentally have content from one campaign spill into another.

 

[enrious]

When you run a backup, you're only backing up the data for that realm. For example, if I have realms for fantasy, modern, supers, fantasy2, cyberpunk, and mecha.

If you back up your realms, you'd end up with several files - fantasy.realm, modern.realm, supers.realm, fantasy2.realm, cyberpunk.realm, and mecha.realm.

As for some of the other, take a look at this from rob:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silveras View Post
The answer there was that a "copy" would mostly contain "pointers" linking back to the original Realm. If you don't change something in the new (copy) Realm, the data is not stored in the new Realm. If you do make a change, then that change is stored in the new Realm and replaces the information for that game. For example, perhaps the Individual listed as leader of a group is replaced as your game plays out; in the original Realm it was "Michael Lord".. now, in that new Realm, it has been changed to "Cynthia Masters". Your original Realm is unchanged, but in your new Realm, the change made there replaces original information.

rob:
This is exactly correct. Everything in the derived realm would start out as a reference to the master realm. The moment you change something in the derived realm, that information is forked off and modified locally to the derived realm, effectively eliminating the "pointer" and replacing it with new information.


Source: http://forums.wolflair.com/showpost.php?p=180722&postcount=27

Note that one of the suggestions is to create a "template" or pristine copy of your world and never customize it, then when you want to run a campaign simply copy it and start your campaign with it.

 

[EightBitz]

I'm not sure I like the idea of a single database with all my realms in it. I'll make do if that is what I have to do.

However, I'd appreciate it if they considered the possibility of multiple databases, at least as an option. I'd like to keep my Star Wars content in a separate database from my Fate Core content, my Dungeons and Dragons content, my Pathfinder content, my Shadowrun content, or whatever other game system I am playing. I don't want to accidentally have content from one campaign spill into another.

I ... ummm ... whut? That's not how databases work. Data doesn't simply spill over from one part of a database to another.

 

[enrious]

In theory, there are ways that it could happen, but you're generally talking database corruption and frankly, you would have bigger concerns.

 

[Mystic Lemur]

I'm not sure I like the idea of a single database with all my realms in it. I'll make do if that is what I have to do.

However, I'd appreciate it if they considered the possibility of multiple databases, at least as an option. I'd like to keep my Star Wars content in a separate database from my Fate Core content, my Dungeons and Dragons content, my Pathfinder content, my Shadowrun content, or whatever other game system I am playing. I don't want to accidentally have content from one campaign spill into another.

It's all about how you look at it. The Realm Works server is one giant database with everyone's realms on it. Your database file on your computer contains all of your realms in one file. Your individual realms contain only the data that you enter into them. If you don't want Chocolate in your Peanut Butter, just don't put it there. Keep them as separate realms and they will remain that way.

 

[mirtos]

In theory, there are ways that it could happen, but you're generally talking database corruption and frankly, you would have bigger concerns.

In theory. In reality - Incredibly unlikely. If you have database corruption to the extreme that is causing that level of spill over, that could even happen with multiple databases (since even with multiple databases, they would be on the same database server, and you'd have to create a cross database access)

I think the real problem, no offense intended to the Viking 2054, is I get the impression he or she has never worked with professional level (relational or even NoSQL) databases. And too many programs and programmers say the word database, when its not what they mean (for example whenever I hear people talk about database, and I learn they actually mean a flat file, or even worse, a CSV file) I cringe. This isn't Viking 2054's fault... its the fact that too many people use the word database when it really isnt that so too many people have dealt with issues that aren't about databases.

A relational database is a collection of data organized in such a way for fast and efficient searches, updates, deletes, inserts, etc. Generally its server based, and there is a good reason for these tables, views, etc, to existing on a single database. Performance. Which is the main reason to also split them to another database, when needed: performance.

Reasons to separate things into separate databases are things such as:

- the STRUCTURE of one database needs to be different than another. Since we're not talking content, but structure, this would not be the case for Realms Works.

- the database can only handle so much information (you sometimes see this with cheap web hosting companies, and I hope/doubt this is going to be the case with RealmsWorks... i guess we shall see?)

- one application needs to access an entirely different set of tables that another application will never access, and for performance reasons, to split into multiple databases makes sense

- same structure, but splitting into different instances for performance reasons.

On our individual side ("OUR" databases), it would make no sense to split into 4 or 5 or 6 databases. It would require (in theory) multiple connections to different databases, and would make things such as copying from one realm to another, VERY much a pain.

On the cloud side, I could see the potential need for multiple databases only if performance becomes a concern, but this has nothing to do with your data, but to ensure the many users that are using the cloud at once can do so, it might make sense to split into multiple databases... maybe theyve done that, maybe they havent. But that isnt something for us to even worry about, that is something for Rob and his team to ensure that the cloud is responsive. This gets into large technical issues that none of us who dont work for Lone Wolf can comment on in anything more than a theoretical way.

 

[enrious]

Heh, I was weighing whether or not to get into the difference between tables and databases and pointing out that from a certain vantage point, realms seem to be like tables and there's a whole host of reasons why that makes sense and almost none why it doesn't, but then I discarded it because I figured it'd be too technical.

 

[Farling]

When you run a backup, you're only backing up the data for that realm. For example, if I have realms for fantasy, modern, supers, fantasy2, cyberpunk, and mecha.

I'm fairly sure that when you do a backup from within RW, then you are backing up the entire database (all realms), not an individual realm.

 

[rob]

I'm fairly sure that when you do a backup from within RW, then you are backing up the entire database (all realms), not an individual realm.

This is 100% accurate. There is exactly ONE database for ALL realms. Backups are made for the entire database - NOT individual realms. The statement by @enrious is not how things work within Realm Works.

 

[rob]

I'm not sure I like the idea of a single database with all my realms in it. I'll make do if that is what I have to do.

However, I'd appreciate it if they considered the possibility of multiple databases, at least as an option. I'd like to keep my Star Wars content in a separate database from my Fate Core content, my Dungeons and Dragons content, my Pathfinder content, my Shadowrun content, or whatever other game system I am playing. I don't want to accidentally have content from one campaign spill into another.

There's no "spilling of content" within Realm Works. Everything is in one database. However, every record is explicitly tied to the realm is pertains to, and this is baked into the architecture at a very low level. So it's not possible for data to "spill".

A LOT of time and effort went into getting all this just right. And it's been tested for TWO YEARS now by the initial members of the Beta team and close to 2000 users for nearly a year with the Kickstarter backers. We've never had problems with data integrity because we take it very seriously.

Hope this helps!

 

[enrious]

This is 100% accurate. There is exactly ONE database for ALL realms. Backups are made for the entire database - NOT individual realms. The statement by @enrious is not how things work within Realm Works.

Glad to hear it - I think RW gives that impression because when you click Backup, the default extension is .realm - maybe add some verbage to the hover text?

 

[Parody]

Glad to hear it - I think RW gives that impression because when you click Backup, the default extension is .realm - maybe add some verbage to the hover text?

To me it's because the backup button is only in the Realm-level UI, not the launcher ("My Realms") level. That implies you're backing up just that one campaign. They've already talked about changing that, though.

 

[Viking2054]

Ok, I probably misrepresented myself with the word spill or unintentional spill. I wasn't really concerned about database corruption messing up a realm or mixing the information between them. What I was worried about was an ID10T error or a PBK&C error.

I admit my database use is limited to Access with very minimal poking around with MySQL.

However, when I do work on a campaign for the game systems I run, I often start with maps I tend to create in CC3 creating more and more detailed maps until I'm doing dungeons, cities, towns, buildings. Only after I finish with the maps I need done to introduce the characters to the world and starting region do I then move onto campaign concepts and finally finish up with NPC's and encounters. I don't really care for most canned campaign settings or adventures so I tend to create everything myself except for monsters or an occasional borrowed stat block.

I can see those maps taking up a huge amount of database space if they are imbedded into the database (even as jpeg or png files). Add in all the other information for multiple campaigns and I can see a low to middle powered system with limited memory and hard drive space causing some problems. And wouldn't those problems just compound themselves as the abilities of Realm Works are expanded?

Also, as to cloud storage, I'd hope my creations are kept as a self contained database and not merged into some master database run by LWD. Call me paranoid if you wish, but I don't want anybody to be able to lay claim to or access my original content without my express permission. On that front, it might be nice to be able to use a third party encryption system for my data on the cloud service if I wish. Then grant my players access by e-mailing them a key that would allow read only access.

I rarely delete my creations although I do retire/archive them. There is always the possibility that I might return to a campaign in the future though, so I keep a lot of records (mostly digital now). And if I'm going to start throwing my stuff into Realm Works versus my other tools for overall campaign management, then I would like the ability to switch between databases from time to time for both performance reasons and archival reasons.

 

[mirtos]

The problem is MSAccess has almost not access control (ironic, huh?) and its not how real databases work. Yes, it has SQL, and it is relational, but it is not a professional grade database. Its the main reason (well ok, one of the main reasons) no self-respecting website or serious network application would ever run their system on it.

Beign paranoid about your content makes sense. But having multiple databases (and the idea of having a self contained database for every user gives me the shivvers) doesnt make it more or less secure. I'm not going to have a database password, nor are you.

The business model for this is to ensure the data is safe. Asking about data integrity makes sense, after all, it is your data. Asking how they do this also makes sense.

 

[enrious]

To me it's because the backup button is only in the Realm-level UI, not the launcher ("My Realms") level. That implies you're backing up just that one campaign. They've already talked about changing that, though.

I think that's it exactly, but as you say they've talked about changing it, so no worries.

 

[rob]

Glad to hear it - I think RW gives that impression because when you click Backup, the default extension is .realm - maybe add some verbage to the hover text?

We chose the file extension to tie the file clearly to the PRODUCT. Since the only time users ever see the filename, we never envisioned that the extension would be keyed upon as having specific meaning about exactly what content was in the file - beyond the simple fact that it's Realm Works data.

We'll look at ways to make things clearer...