Hero Lab on Android

[Fionavar]

Nexus 7 (2nd Gen) & Blackberry Q10 with Playstore Sideloaded = +2

[ibecker]

+1 for android
I'm a big fan of HeroLab, especially since I started using Realm Works, and I'd love to be able to use HL (and RW... ) on my several android tablets and/or phones.

[Fuzzy]

Yet again, all this PR struggle would have been avoided by simply making a web based client instead of the iPad version - likely would have been easier to build as well.

[liz]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Yet again, all this PR struggle would have been avoided by simply making a web based client instead of the iPad version - likely would have been easier to build as well.

A web based app would not be easier to build that a native app. We built Hero Lab back in 2006, when web apps were in their infancy. Gmail Beta had only come out 2 years before. Making a web app now would require a ground-up rewrite of nearly the whole program. That ground-up rewrite would take significantly longer than getting native apps to our users.

If we were starting from scratch today, we might make different decisions - but writing for a web app in 2006 wouldn't have made sense for something as complex as Hero Lab.

[loodwig]

Originally Posted by liz

A web based app would not be easier to build that a native app. We built Hero Lab back in 2006, when web apps were in their infancy. Gmail Beta had only come out 2 years before. Making a web app now would require a ground-up rewrite of nearly the whole program. That ground-up rewrite would take significantly longer than getting native apps to our users.

If we were starting from scratch today, we might make different decisions - but writing for a web app in 2006 wouldn't have made sense for something as complex as Hero Lab.

I totally agree that a web app and native app are totally not the same thing (unless you're using something like phonegap, which is its own nightmare to work with). Especially considering that a web app means that you're dealing with a distributed hosting of authentication in terms of user data and access, plus it would be mandatory that the user would have internet access in order to use the application... which would be a huge minus for me.

Although it would make it much easier (in theory) to distribute updates and validate licenses.

However, are you saying that you are running on an 8 year old code base? How are you able to manage your technical debt with code that old? Any project that I've worked on in the last 20 years that was that old was obscenely difficult just to add in a small feature, and invariably anything older than 5 years (in production) is typically easier to rewrite than maintain. You must have some combination of very low turn around, small staff, stringent coding standards, lean feature sets, and skilled developers, or perhaps you're all just insane!

[rob]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Yet again, all this PR struggle would have been avoided by simply making a web based client instead of the iPad version - likely would have been easier to build as well.

Have you ever walked around a Con and looked at the gamers using their iPads (and Android tablets) at the assorted tables? Have you ever stopped to consider how many of those tablets actually have an ACTIVE internet connection over 3G (or comparable)? A web-based app would have simply traded one limitation for another. It would not have truly solved anything.

In addition, and it would NOT have been easier to build. It actually would have been significantly harder to build, since we would have had to largely rewrite the Hero Lab engine for a web-based app instead of re-using it on the iPad. So there's that consideration as well.

[rob]

Originally Posted by loodwig

However, are you saying that you are running on an 8 year old code base? How are you able to manage your technical debt with code that old? Any project that I've worked on in the last 20 years that was that old was obscenely difficult just to add in a small feature, and invariably anything older than 5 years (in production) is typically easier to rewrite than maintain. You must have some combination of very low turn around, small staff, stringent coding standards, lean feature sets, and skilled developers, or perhaps you're all just insane!

If the code is well-engineered, highly data-driven, and has a small, stable team working on it, you can readily get 10+ years of life out of a code base. As you surmised, we have extremely low staff turnover, a small team to begin with, a well-engineered design, and a good team. The fact that everything is substantially data-driven is a huge factor as well.

Oh, and we're insane, too! Well, at least *I* am.

[Colen]

Originally Posted by loodwig

However, are you saying that you are running on an 8 year old code base? How are you able to manage your technical debt with code that old? Any project that I've worked on in the last 20 years that was that old was obscenely difficult just to add in a small feature, and invariably anything older than 5 years (in production) is typically easier to rewrite than maintain. You must have some combination of very low turn around, small staff, stringent coding standards, lean feature sets, and skilled developers, or perhaps you're all just insane!

We're not just working with an 8 year old code base - we have a number of files in source control with creation dates in the late '90s! Some of the code Hero Lab is based on is 15-20 years old at this point, and first saw the light of day many years ago in our first product, Army Builder.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by liz

A web based app would not be easier to build that a native app. We built Hero Lab back in 2006, when web apps were in their infancy. Gmail Beta had only come out 2 years before. Making a web app now would require a ground-up rewrite of nearly the whole program. That ground-up rewrite would take significantly longer than getting native apps to our users.

If we were starting from scratch today, we might make different decisions - but writing for a web app in 2006 wouldn't have made sense for something as complex as Hero Lab.

The iPad app wasn't written in 2006 either. I'm not talking about HL being web based from the start, I'm saying offering effectively a web based UI for HL, one that could be pulled up on either an iPad, Android, windows mobile, or a PC.

Originally Posted by rob

Have you ever walked around a Con and looked at the gamers using their iPads (and Android tablets) at the assorted tables? Have you ever stopped to consider how many of those tablets actually have an ACTIVE internet connection over 3G (or comparable)? A web-based app would have simply traded one limitation for another. It would not have truly solved anything.

I guess that's the major disagreement then. MOST gaming does not happen at a Con. Is that use once or twice a year really the target audience of this program?

Originally Posted by rob

In addition, and it would NOT have been easier to build. It actually would have been significantly harder to build, since we would have had to largely rewrite the Hero Lab engine for a web-based app instead of re-using it on the iPad. So there's that consideration as well.

I, obviously, don't know how your code was written, but usually, in a data driven program, the UI rendering and interaction is separate from the data manipulation. Only the rendering and interaction would need to be written for html display/response. It's likely your existing 'panel' objects would be able to be ported to the HTML, while leaving the data side alone.

[loodwig]

Originally Posted by rob

If the code is well-engineered, highly data-driven, and has a small, stable team working on it, you can readily get 10+ years of life out of a code base. As you surmised, we have extremely low staff turnover, a small team to begin with, a well-engineered design, and a good team. The fact that everything is substantially data-driven is a huge factor as well.

Oh, and we're insane, too! Well, at least *I* am.

Well, bravo!

Though, it may not be a bad idea to consider a rewrite at this point, depending on how integrated your various products are. I've always been a fan of vigorous coding standards, reviews, retro-analysis, and so on. I can't shake a quote that an old manager of mine said, with regards to the idea of writing the most maintainable software possible:

"Code is cheap. Write it again if you have to."

There's some wisdom to that adage, though I scarcely want to admit it. It just feels like carte blance to write spaghetti.