How long, Really?

[adzling]

That's a mighty long way to say: "stop wasting our time by asking".

Which, when you think about it, is a rather odd response when the project is what, over 2 years late?

I'd ask you to refrain from stating the obvious and let the developers respond (or not) themselves.

Thanks

[AEIOU]

Methinks that if the devs were going to respond, they would have done so 12 pages and two months ago.

@Exmortis summed it up very well and I'd like to ask him (and others) to not refrain from responding. It's important that we all help the community understand that timeframes will not be published for a number of very good reasons. By encouraging the community to help the community stay informed, the devs can stay focused on the things that matter to us all -- rolling out RW updates.

[Chemlak]

Originally Posted by Aaron

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...74745115859352

Now, you see, I'd go for the eminently more nerd-unique:

/jranger

[wurzel]

Originally Posted by Exmortis

A question everyone would love to answer, Rob and team more than us I am sure. But no matter what, this cannot be answered until the answer is "Today".

Customers always want finite answers, but when they themselves are in the hot seat, know that this is product suicide to do so.

Reality is, no one has the magic mirror, no one is an oracle, we are just people. I am sure LWD would have loved to see it all working some time ago, but best laid plans are just that - plans.

If Rob states a date, and it slips, the general customer will crucify him, if answers too far out, the general customer will crucify him. The average person just wants a pound of flesh.

I get it, you want it now, so do I, but just know that overtime these posts arise, and stir the proverbial pot, Rob or a team member has to take precious coding and design time to post big long diatribes, that in the end just state the same thing as they always do and will:

"When it is ready."

Really, the fact the team is still here, updates are coming, support calls are being answered, LWD is working on RW.

...

Every time we stir the pot, for the information they do provide in a timely enough manner, we exact a toll, that toll is paid in what otherwise would have been progress.

I do not fully agree.

In my time I spent 30+ years managing small and big software projects. Although it were very different kinds of requirements one thing was common to all projects: they had a project plan. You are right, even the best laid plans are just plans, but the really good plans match reality almost 100%. Once we did a two-year-project with 50 developers and another 40 test and support people. We had a plan with a fixed delivery date from the beginning. The plan included every single piece of work that needed to be done, and also the expected amount of work days, names of the people who should do it, dependencies and relations to other deliverables and so on.

Of course we encountered a large number of problems. But since our plan included all dependencies, risks, resources spent and estimated, fulfillments and whatever had happened on our way, we had a very clear view of the consequences. And we reacted accordingly.

Yes, after two very busy years, at some time including 18 work hours a day 7 days a week, we did not hit the target. All in all we were one week late.

Creating an maintaining plans as the example above is a huge amount of work. Not every project is that big though. But every project needs at least some kind of plan, even if it is just a list of features. How else could you create a working piece of software? Modern agile projects have their backlog, and each task has an estimate of the work needed. If you don't know what you want to achieve you will get nothing.

One of my former CIOs had a saying: "risk management is project management for grown-ups." I'm sure the Lone Wolves have an idea what exactly they want to achieve. Hopefully they also have a plan how to get there. But then I don't understand the silence. Giving a short statement should be possible once a month. Didn't they hire a new marketing person?

[Grey Mage]

I think the difference, Wurzel, is that as you said, you worked on very large projects. LWD is a small shop, less than 10 people total (I believe). Having someone take a couple of hours a week to pull in the current status of everything, then articulate all of that into a 5 or 6 paragraph summary takes away time from working on the actual project.

Yes, LWD did hire someone new, but at the time they did so, someone said it was going to take a few months to bring them up to speed on things.

Things are moving along. Slowly but they are moving. And yes, it has been 2 years. Two long years. But if you look at how far the code has come since that first release there is definitely progress. We (not just they) are getting there. They hammer out some code and then we, the betatesters and users, hammer the crap out of it and it gets better. We just have to be patient. Which is difficult since most of us have grown up in a world of "I want it now!" expectations.

All of that said, I think we should look at HeroLab. It started out pretty rough and small but LWD has stuck with it and turned it into the industry standard for character creation and management software. Let's give them the opportunity to do the same with Realm Works.

Or, I suppose, we can all go back to PIMs and using Wikis on a stick...

[Exmortis]

Originally Posted by wurzel

Once we did a two-year-project with 50 developers and another 40 test and support people.

Wow yeah because LWD has 50 devs and 40 test and support staff.........

[Chemlak]

Originally Posted by Exmortis

Wow yeah because LWD has 50 devs and 40 test and support staff.........

Rob is reading this and going "God, yes, please!"

[Silveras]

Everyone has a different degree of patience.

RealmWorks is coming up on the FOUR year anniversary of the launch of the Kickstarter (Jan 2017).

Is RealmWorks late? Yes
Has LoneWolf given specific dates in the past? Yes
Has LoneWolf failed to meet those dates? Yes
Could it be said that LoneWolf's date estimates were often too optimistic? Yes
Has LoneWolf been raked over the coals for failing to meet those dates? Yes
Is LoneWolf likely to give specific future dates again? No
Has LoneWolf suffered unexpected setbacks? Yes
Was it a planning failure not to be able to handle them? Maybe
Is demanding frequent updates going to make the work go any faster? No
Is getting frequent updates going to make the work go any faster? No
Is getting frequent updates going to make the work go any slower? Maybe
Is demanding updates going to make some people feel better? Probably
Is getting more frequent updates going to make people feel better? Probably not, as the updates likely won't change except to report another delay. How many ways, and how many times, can Rob say "we're working on it, and it will be out SOON (tm)" ?

The problem is that "SOON (tm)" no longer means soon... it now means someday.

As frustrating as it is, all we can do is to try to be as patient as we can be while LoneWolf gets the work done, and use the features that are in-place today.

The problem LoneWolf has is the hit to credibility. "Soon" is now a laughable promise. I understand, as I indicated above, that dates are not forthcoming.. but, really, LoneWolf needs to get themselves organized to better plan and communicate timeframes for future updates. Silence on future dates in the immediate aftermath of failing to meet promised dates is understandable, but I don't think it is acceptable as a long-term policy. At some point, LoneWolf has to get better at predicting dates, and meeting them. That will likely not be until after the Content Market is finally done... but it is something I think has to happen before the next major update comes out "soon (tm)",

[MaxSupernova]

In the kickstarter video it was "3 years in development".

So, we're actually talking **SEVEN** years in development, and the primary feature is not available, and others (*cough*calendars*cough*) that were in the kickstarter have been removed.

>The average person just wants a pound of flesh.

Nope. The average person just wants the freaking software to do what it was advertised to do after a 3+ year wait.

[Silveras]

Originally Posted by MaxSupernova

In the kickstarter video it was "3 years in development".

So, we're actually talking **SEVEN** years in development, and the primary feature is not available, and others (*cough*calendars*cough*) that were in the kickstarter have been removed.

Nobody put any money into purchasing or backing RealmWorks before the kickstarter; therefore, I don't think the 3 years leading up to the kickstarter can be complained about. Nothing concrete was promised until the kickstarter, so the only timeframe people can legitimately claim angst over is post-kickstarter (imho).