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At 08:53 AM 4/1/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>----- Original Message ----- >From: "Webmaster" <webmaster@blee.biz> > > I don't > > think AB has much to worry about. It already has an > > established consumer base, it is a generic program > > that works for almost every known wargame known to man > > currently in play > >I'm not so sure. Consider the problems www.warhammer40K.com had recently. >The following is taken from the letter they received from the GW legal >department: > >==== >* Acceptable army builders and roster makers must conform with the following >criteria: > >a) the builder must not prevent the user from building an illegal army > ("illegal" in this context meaning illegal in gaming terms) >b) the builder must not inform the user if they have built an illegal army >c) the builder must require the user to consult the relevant codex >d) the builder must not devalue the codex that it is derived from >e) the builder must not contain any text on the rules. >==== Army Builder doesn't do any of this. The data files do. And Lone Wolf doesn't distribute the data files. It's a subtle, but important, point. What Games Workshop will probably do will be more subversive. Like not allow army lists printed with Army Builder to be used in official tournaments. (A tactic I've heard of before.) E ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNt...gGAA/IMSolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, email armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
#11 |
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That is a very reasonable tactic. They already do that with their
miniatures, so doing the same thing with software seems like a reasonable next step. I don't think that GW can stop AB supporting their games, but insisting that rosters be done by hand or by IAL is an interresting idea. Other random thoughts: How many people use unofficial, or wrong miniatures in their games? Doesn't AB support addons so that I can customise the output for printing to make it look like anything I want? Perhaps even the output from IAL? What would GW do about things like Warhammer? Currently, there is no official equivalent for Warhammer. What about armies that are not (yet) officially supported by IAL, but are real 40K armies? What about bugs in IAL? If the printout says that an army costs 1400 points, but you 'know' it costs 1500 after doing the same army by hand, which is right, and which gets into a tournament? Could they use rules like that for things like RT tournaments? ...regan Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum. -----Original Message----- From: Eric Landes [mailto:eric@landesfamily.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 10:22 AM To: ab@support.wolflair.com Subject: Re: [AB] Future of Army Builder? At 08:53 AM 4/1/2003 -0600, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Webmaster" <webmaster@blee.biz> > > I don't > > think AB has much to worry about. It already has an > > established consumer base, it is a generic program > > that works for almost every known wargame known to man > > currently in play > >I'm not so sure. Consider the problems www.warhammer40K.com had recently. >The following is taken from the letter they received from the GW legal >department: > >==== >* Acceptable army builders and roster makers must conform with the following >criteria: > >a) the builder must not prevent the user from building an illegal army > ("illegal" in this context meaning illegal in gaming terms) >b) the builder must not inform the user if they have built an illegal army >c) the builder must require the user to consult the relevant codex >d) the builder must not devalue the codex that it is derived from >e) the builder must not contain any text on the rules. >==== Army Builder doesn't do any of this. The data files do. And Lone Wolf doesn't distribute the data files. It's a subtle, but important, point. What Games Workshop will probably do will be more subversive. Like not allow army lists printed with Army Builder to be used in official tournaments. (A tactic I've heard of before.) E Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=246920.2960106...web/S=17050590 80:HM/A=1513704/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/cpm/grp/300_02F/g22lp?T arget=mm/g22lp.tmpl> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=246...75/D=egroupmai l/S=:HM/A=1513704/rand=913478951> To unsubscribe from this group, email armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> DVD Rentals with No Late Fees - Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ZKLNcC/pEZ...gGAA/IMSolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, email armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
#12 |
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> So basically, AB can violate A and B, plus depending on the
interpretation, > listing stats as WS, BS, etc. contains text from the rules right? Not to > mention, listing that a Space Marine has a bolter or that something cuases > fear devalues the codex. Seems like you could fight it, but in a legal war > of attrition, who has the more money: GW or Lone Wolf? AB doesnt violate anything in GW's books. The stand-alone AB program is as much good as a chocolate fireguard. Only when you introduce datafiles does AB function, and that function is based on the 'programming' within the datafiles. Therefore, Wolflair is immune to GW's legal eagles. > I think AB is safe but IMO the survivability of the AB files may be in > doubt. Only if GW's info is kept inside the GW-based datafiles. > AND if GW shuts down the distribution sites for the files then the > _program_ is useless. Incorrect. AB would still function for non-GW datafiles. Jimi ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE Cell Phones with up to $400 Cash Back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_bBUKB/vYx...gGAA/IMSolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, email armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
#13 |
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> That is a very reasonable tactic. They already do that with their
> miniatures, GW events expect GW models to be used - if you turn up with a Rackham army then expect it to be refused entry. > What would GW do about things like Warhammer? Currently, there is no > official equivalent for Warhammer. If the 40k IAL works and sells well, then I can see a Warhammer version. > What about armies that are not (yet) officially supported by IAL, but are > real 40K armies? That puts us in the same boat as we have now with 40k armies not appearing in the 40k datafiles - its a wait and see scenario. > What about bugs in IAL? Yeah!! Damn those Tyranids!! :-P Seriously, I'd expect the same type of customer support that other software gets - you find a bug and send details to the software company and then wait for a fix. > If the printout says that an army costs 1400 > points, but you 'know' it costs 1500 after doing the same army by hand, > which is right, and which gets into a tournament? If it can be proven that the electronic version is screwed then thats a bug and thus you report it. As to which one gets into a tournie, well that depends on any checking method employed by the tournie organizers. Jimi ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE Cell Phones with up to $400 Cash Back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_bBUKB/vYx...gGAA/IMSolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, email armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
#14 |
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Yes,
I don't believe the situation is as dire as some people may think. LoneWolf makes a product that depends on datafiles to work. Not only datafiles for GW games, but datafiles for a wide variety of games. As has been said, LW doesn't make the datafiles...users of AB do. I can see GW going a step further than what Gene has said. GW could force LW to remove the search for recent updated datafiles (or at least modify it so that no datafiles for GW games would appear). As Gene has said, it would be difficult for GW to enforce people not making datafiles for GW games. Not that GW would have done this, but I think they'd have been better officially licensing LW to handle GW datafiles and such. --- Gene <gcc@siegetower.com> wrote: > > > > Since GW doesn't have anything like an OGL they > can just > > order LoneWolf to stop supporting their products. > Anyone > > who's been gaming for long enough knows that GW > would > > do exactly that to anything that dares compete > with their > > own products. > > > =================== > this will probably be almost impossible to enforce, > seeing that the > Datafiles are not written by Lone Wolf, but by users > not affiliated with > Lone Wolf. All LW COULD be made to do is ask end > users not to use/write > datafiles for GW games, which in turn LW could not > enforce. IF GW could > enforce this, they would have years ago. > > Gene > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > To unsubscribe from this group, email > > armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE Cell Phones with up to $400 Cash Back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_bBUKB/vYx...gGAA/IMSolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, email armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
#15 |
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Have you ever heard of an open source program called DeCSS? People
thought the same thing about that, and then the movie industry dragged a 16 year old kid through court to prove them wrong. Now thanks to the US government it is ILLEAGAL to play DVDs on your Linux box. If you were distributing the datafiles on your website and a lawyer from GW called and demanded that you desist would you risk your financial well being on principle? Making Lone Wolf remove the datafiles from the autoupdate would be as trivial as having their lawyer send him a letter. GW has forced quite a few sites that are critical of them to disist using their graphics on their websites (Cult of the Rogue Trader most prominantly) long after those sites went up. If you're the owner of an IP then you can, are obligated to actually, force others to stop using it. On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 10:04:56 -0800, Gene <gcc@siegetower.com> wrote: >> >> Since GW doesn't have anything like an OGL they can just >> order LoneWolf to stop supporting their products. Anyone >> who's been gaming for long enough knows that GW would >> do exactly that to anything that dares compete with their >> own products. >> > =================== > this will probably be almost impossible to enforce, seeing that the > Datafiles are not written by Lone Wolf, but by users not affiliated with > Lone Wolf. All LW COULD be made to do is ask end users not to use/write > datafiles for GW games, which in turn LW could not enforce. IF GW could > enforce this, they would have years ago. > > Gene > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, email > > armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > -- ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNt...gGAA/IMSolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, email armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
#16 |
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On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 16:46:20 +0100, Jimi <jimi@tubman.fsbusiness.co.uk>
wrote: >> That is a very reasonable tactic. They already do that with their >> miniatures, > > GW events expect GW models to be used - if you turn up with a Rackham > army > then expect it to be refused entry. But it would be so funny to see the looks on the organizers faces. I've often thought of scaring up models from a bygone age like the "beaky" space marines for a GT. Just to see their forehead veins bulge. "Look, these are GW models!" > >> What would GW do about things like Warhammer? Currently, there is no >> official equivalent for Warhammer. > > If the 40k IAL works and sells well, then I can see a Warhammer version. And a version for all their other games too. Probably a version that you'd have to buy separately for each one. > >> What about armies that are not (yet) officially supported by IAL, but >> are >> real 40K armies? > > That puts us in the same boat as we have now with 40k armies not > appearing > in the 40k datafiles - its a wait and see scenario. Indeed, but given GW's history I'd put money on GW jerking Lone Wolf around. Good riddance, the more people they alienate and drive away from their crap games the better. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE Cell Phones with up to $400 Cash Back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_bBUKB/vYx...gGAA/IMSolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, email armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
#17 |
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...What Games Workshop will probably do will be more subversive. Like not
allow army lists printed with Army Builder to be used in official tournaments... This is the strategy that I would expect. The existing Interative Army List (IAL) already has a pre-defined tournament roster output and carries a note that your roster MUST be submitted in this format. Personally, I happen to prefer IAL for 40k. It has a couple of irritating features (it talks on the default setting) but produces a very nice print out FOR ONE GAME but then I dare say Army Builder would be a bit prettier if it only had one system to accommodate. They might waste time in chasing down the on-line data-files but I don't think they'll have much success although they could conceivable insist that a few of the bigger more conspicuous hosts drop them. On the whole, I don't think it would do them much good to take on Army Builder as for the foreseeable future it will carry support far more of their game systems than they do. If you are primarily interested in GW then you're probably going to stumble across and purchase their programme a long time before you discover Army Builder anyway. If GW doesn't dominate your game time then Army Builder will remain as useful as it always has been. ---Steven ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE Cell Phones with up to $400 Cash Back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_bBUKB/vYx...gGAA/IMSolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, email armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
#18 |
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> But it would be so funny to see the looks on the organizers faces. I've
> often thought of scaring up models from a bygone age like the "beaky" > space marines for a GT. Just to see their forehead veins bulge. Beaky marines were made by GW, so no problem there (unless said organizers are so anal as to ban non-current models) > And a version for all their other games too. Probably a version that you'd > have to buy separately for each one. If its GW then you'll have to buy everything - GW dont do 'free' :-P Jimi ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE Cell Phones with up to $400 Cash Back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_bBUKB/vYx...gGAA/IMSolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, email armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
#19 |
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At 10:44 PM 4/1/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>...What Games Workshop will probably do will be more subversive. Like not >allow army lists printed with Army Builder to be used in official >tournaments... > >This is the strategy that I would expect. The existing Interative Army List >(IAL) already has a pre-defined tournament roster output and carries a note >that your roster MUST be submitted in this format. > >Personally, I happen to prefer IAL for 40k. It has a couple of irritating >features (it talks on the default setting) but produces a very nice print >out FOR ONE GAME but then I dare say Army Builder would be a bit prettier >if it only had one system to accommodate. Using the 'custom output extensions' mechanism within Army Builder, you can do this - if you take a look at the CAV datafiles, they have a quite pretty 'datacard printer' included. Using the ABPrint source code included with the construction kit (I think), it should be quite feasible for someone familiar with C++ to create an extension that outputs in 'GW tournament format'. (You could really write it in any language you liked, as long as you knew how to write code to print documents in it.) -- Colen McAlister (colen@wolflair.com) Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNt...gGAA/IMSolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, email armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
#20 |
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