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BobFromMarketing
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14

Old November 4th, 2005, 10:46 PM
Why are we paying for this again? It has been more then half a year since we got an update. The system is buggy as hell, for example, special character corupts an army list, printing a unit bigger then one page. You decided it would be a great idea to try this subscription bull, yet we do not see updates. Not to mention that it is a user supported system. Sorry, but I wont be continuing my subscription after it dies out. GW is nicer about screwing people out of their money.
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deathlynx
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Location: New Hampshire, USA
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Old November 5th, 2005, 05:56 AM
Well, there should be a v3.1 coming out soon...it's still in Beta testing however...They're always attempting to upgrade and improve the product...I'll let the boys at LW take it from here...
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HakujinGrande
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Posts: 123

Old November 5th, 2005, 10:31 AM
While his post is a bit inflammitory, I believe he has a valid point.

Let me preface this by stating that I too have been a software developer, and understand that schedules slip for various reasons and implementation of features may take longer than planned.

However, as a customer and a datafile author, I also feel the frustration of the other users regarding the release of updates. By my count, there have been only two updates thus far, and neither has fixed the loading roster bug. A bug report related to this problem has been in the Space Marine bug tracker at http://ab40k3.homelinux.net since at lease March. I would venture to say that not having rosters load properly makes the product unusable for some, and therefore a waste of their money.

From the user point of view, I question why time is being spent adding new features for 3.1 when there are bugs to be fixed. The current philosophy and update schedule appears to be at odds with the with the ideas stated on Lone Wolf's page describing the licensing model for AB.

Quote:
Users are able to get a variety of small updates over the course of the year, but the company still saves up the major new features for a new version in an effort to compel the customer renew his subscription the next year.
Found here:
http://www.wolflair.com/rightframe.p...ensing_details

This is just some food for thought, and perhaps a call to sit down and rething your release strategy.

Army Builder is a great product, and I believe in it, otherwise why would I be a datafile author for two game systems? But I would also like to see more frequent updates that fix the serious existing problems emphasized over adding new features.

Space Marine Maintainer for AB3
Battlefleet Gothic Maintainer for AB3
40K: Space Wolves, 13th Company, Grey Knights, Deathwatch
BFG: Space Marine Fleet, Armageddon Fleet, Tau Fleet
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BobFromMarketing
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Old November 5th, 2005, 10:40 PM
Yes it was inflamatory, I posted it right after I found I couldn't load ANOTHER roster because of the problem so I was pissed. I'd hate to rub this in the crews face, but GW provides virtually the same product, working, and only charges once.
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deathlynx
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Old November 6th, 2005, 04:50 AM
Army Builder is designed to handle more systems then just 40K...I don't know the figures, and while 40K is undoubtedly one of the more popular ones it's not the only one...there are bugs that have needed fixing and features that are required for most of the systems...Haveing some expirience with both coding and system troublshooting I know that sometimes it's hard to find the cause of an error and it's usually even more difficult to fix...

You only have to buy the GW product once if you only have a single army (good or evil)...Also they don't provide support for even the variety of other games they produce much less the other games out there...I'm not all that anti-GW (heck I wrote the first gen BFG files for 3.0) but their support is generally atrocious...They haven't even created a program for their other two "core" games much less the SG games...

Concider that AB and similar programs generally targets the harder core gamers (due to a more diverse model/army selection)...Also concider that harder core gamers generally preffer the SG lines to the core ones...On the other hand SG and LoTR have lower sales per player then 40K or WFB so they aren't about to support them with something as intensive as computer aided army design...

For my vote keep up the good work guys and the next upgrade will come when it comes (heck everyone should still have a few months left on their initial year subscription)...
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rob
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Old November 7th, 2005, 10:42 PM
I'll now do my best to avoid getting singed by the flame-thrower that has been squarely pointed at us. There are definitely some comments made in this thread that appear to be sparked by emotion instead of fact. And the accusations clearly demand some sort of response, so here goes....

First, the topic of product updates. The software industry "norm" is for feature-based product updates to be released by companies every few years. They save up all those features so that they can then justify that the customer re-purchase the product again. The net result is that the customer pays for the product again and they wait approximately three years to get those features. What we opted for with our licensing mechanism is for users to not have to wait three years to get new functionality. Instead, we'll release smaller updates more frequently.

Apparently, at least one person appears to believe that the definition of "more frequently" is every few months. Well, that's just not practical for adding substantive functionality, and that was never the intention on our end. The vision was to release one substantive feature update each year, plus smaller updates that fixed bugs and added a few small features. We released two bug fix updates shortly after release of V3.0. As we've discussed numerous times on this forum and posted prominently on the website, V3.1 is a significant update that is in the works and due out shortly. We're hoping that a Beta release later this week will be the final Beta release before V3.1 goes out the door. It has been less than a year since V3.0 was released. That means that, compared to the software norm of three years between releases, this is definitely more frequently. And the new stuff we've been adding is going to significantly improve the product for everyone - users and authors alike.

On the subject of the roster loading problem, we made a bad choice with respect to it. The problem first came to our attention in late March, after we had released V3.0b. We looked at the problem and found it to be limited to occurring with a specific technique of data file writing. After considering it, we determined that the likelihood of it affecting lots of users was extremely remote. The technique was one we believed would be used rarely by data file authors and apply only in special situations. So we decided to hold off on fixing it until V3.1.

In hindsight, that was a huge mistake. Since the 40K data files were in their infancy at that time, the technique was not commonly used, and we assumed that the technique would NOT be used throughout the 40K files. We anticipated that other techniques would be utilized than the problematic one for most situations, so the problem would be infrequent at most. That was clearly a bad call on our part. People are creatures of habit and emulation. So the fact that the technique achieved the desired result in one spot within the 40K files caused it to be re-used in numerous places. That ended up with the problem becoming much more of an issue than we had expected.

By the time we recognized this was becoming a bigger issue as a result of the re-use of the technique in the 40K data files (and then a few other games), it was summer. At that point, we were well underway with V3.1 and there was no practical way to just put out a "bug fix" release. The code had transformed far too much to make that feasible. Our only option was to continue forward to V3.1, which was targeted for late September. Then we ran into delays on V3.1, which brings us to now.

The bottom line on this issue is that there was no intent to "screw people" on this. AB's success over the past 7+ years is due almost single-handedly to fiercely loyal customers spreading the word. Anyone who thinks we would intentionally undermine that success needs to re-think their contentions. We're not some large corporate entity here. We're a tiny company (two full-time and two part-time staff), and we're doing the best we can, but sometimes things don't go as planned and/or we screw up. Both happened with the roster loading bug. :-(

Now back to the licensing mechanism. Nobody has been asked to extend their licenses yet. The first licenses will come up for extension in February. If we were trying to hold people ransom for their money, wouldn't it make more sense for us to release a minimal V3.1 a few months ago and to wait to release a substantive V3.2 until, say, March or April? That way, we'd force people to extend their license to get the new features. That's not how we're doing things, as V3.1 has a huge number of new capabilities and was actually originally targeted for release more than a month ago. So I can only hope this clearly shows our true philosophy.

As for comparing AB to GW's product, there are a few key details that the accusations failed to take into consideration. First, GW's product only works for a single game system, while AB works for all of them (subject to the writing of data files, of which there are about two dozen now). GW's product has had far more bugs in it than AB, and they have taken years to fix them (as opposed to months for us). GW's product actually costs 50% MORE than AB, for complete coverage of that one game system. If AB were purchased solely for that one game system, and the AB license extended twice to yield the same net cost, AB would include three full years of product enhancements for the same price. That's a far cry from the GW product offering.

With regards to bug fix updates, we're in the process of re-evaluating how we can avoid a problem like the roster loading bug in the future. Specifically, we need a way to release a bug fix update well after we've begun work on a substantive new release. Our current source control tool is incapable of supporting good "branching", which is what we would need to solve the problem. We'll be figuring something out for the future so that we don't find ourselves in this position again.

Anyways, I think that covers the topic pretty thoroughly. I hope I've adequately responded to the concerns that have been voiced thus far. If not, please feel free to explore the topic further here. Questions on additional related topics are also welcome.

Please realize that I'm up to my eyeballs right now with getting V3.1 wrapped up. I promise to answer all pertinent questions, although it might take a few days to do so. Please be patient while we get through crunch time.... :-)

Thanks, Rob
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BobFromMarketing
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Old November 9th, 2005, 02:03 AM
Hey man, thats all I wanted to hear. I heard promises and promises oh 3.1 is gunna be out soon. Then there are no news updates for a while other then "hey we were here" or "this deal is over". You looked like ether a dead fish or a shark at the surface of the water. Ether way it wasn't looking good. Thank you for replying.
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