Lankhmar

[zarlor]

So far LWD hasn't expressed an interest in selling settings files for Savage Worlds, so the majority of them have just been fan-built. For official Pinnacle settings, however, they do have an agreement in place to allow those fan-built settings to go into the official updater, but the creator has to host the file and LWD does a sanity check of the file before allowing it to be added in that way.

All I can say for sure right now is that I have a partial Evernight file done, but nothing else that I, personally, have been working on and I've just been too busy with other stuff to bother trying to build one for anything else (especially not for Lankhmar since I don't foresee my own group wanting to use that setting anytime soon.)

You could always try and take a shot at making a file for it, though. I tried writing a brief tutorial in a thread here called "So you want to make a data file?" which could help you get started. Even if you don't add any of the coding to automate things, just doing the grunt work of copying and pasting in all of the text for gear, edges, hindrances, etc. may be enough to get one of us on the forum helping to finish out the file for you.

[CapedCrusader]

Thanks, Z.

[Paragon]

Just be aware that there can be a lot of little hidden pitfalls that will be anything but self-evident when building data files (or frankly, even just doing any custom content); I'd thought I was done with my Broken Earth file a year ago, but didn't realize until I'd used it for a few months actually running the game that there were some problems here and there with how I'd done specific things.

[CapedCrusader]

Isn't it always the way, Paragon...

[jfrazierjr]

Ok, so there are several things I have found about Lankhmar which are a bit hard and/or clunky(in my mind anyway) to implement in the base game system. Some of these items I have already asked for in the Enhancement thread in some way. A few of the things I mention below are not impossible or ever hard to do, just work.


1) the money system. As tends to happen in fantasy settings I have seen(I don't have any exposure to other genre setting files and don't care to), Lankhmar has multiple currency types. Unfortunately, of the setting books I have seen which have multiple currency types they don't even agree upon the exchange rates. As such I just don't think this can be ever accounted for without a full re-write of the gear/money system into it's own separate game folder, and I doubt anyone i willing to do that(I am not just for this "feature"), so we just have to live with this limitation. I include this solely for completeness.

2) This is another source book with some extra stuff and choices for "humans" which at least in my mind would make a race tab and either racial ability/racial property(I can never remember which is the "use this from now own") with one or more selectable things which can then bootstrap stuff. Here is the example from the book(I have to write it manually, so hopefully I don't mistype:

The most common race found in Lankhmar is human, though they hail from a variety of locales. Humans begin play with one free Edge as long as they meet all the requirements(see Edges in the Savage Worlds core rules) and a d6 in the skill of their choice, or they can take the cultural package for the various backgrounds listed below

Now, my initial reading of the above(last night) was:

free Edge AND ( (d6 any skill) OR (cultural package) )

but after further reading, I THINK it's supposed to be:

( (free edge) AND (d6 any skill) ) OR (cultural package)

Either way, for the cultural package of which there are 4, we could choose to just create 5 top level race objects(with the basic option being the free edge and d6 skill), ala:
Human - Background A
Human - Background B
Human - Background C
Human - Background D
Human - Basic

And each of the above would be bootstrapped with the stuff that it needs. Of course, the d6 in any skill is problematic and though there are some work arounds for that also, I don't think they are very pretty. In any event, that's the break down of what would be needed for Humans.

The source also has two other races, but those look relatively easy to implement with no odd things that I can see. I still would like to see us having an optional race tab(ie, turn on the viability in a .1st file just like the various setting rules options on the starting screen) that showed the race stuff specifically, but with more options(ie, choosers) which would bootstrap other things.

3) Edges/Weapons: I found only one thing I am not sure how to handle: Named Weapon/Improved Named Weapon. This looks to be a renamed or tweaked Trademark Weapon, but with much, much lower requirements(d6 instead of TMW's d10). Basically, the player can name any specific weapon. They get bonuses when using that specific weapon. The player can take this multiple times, but only once per named weapon. So my first thought was: hmm, can stock individual weapons(or armor, or any gear for that matter) be named specific things by the player? So I checked Trademark Weapon in HL and it has a drop down prompt on the edge, YEAH! But since the weapon itself can't be renamed in the UI, so one would have to duplicate in the Editor and rename or do the same via xml. One possible issue with that is that any existing scripts anywhere which try to add to weapons typically seem to check the name field for comparison and would not find this "instance" because it may not have "Sword" or whatever else in the name anymore.

4) no PP for magic, but has Casting Modifier instead that would be nice to be able to add to the power(but we can't). In theory, IF PP could take a negative number and I assume it can, one could make copies of each power in the setting and put in the casting modifier in place of the PP cost. Basically, this is a modifier to the skill roll, BUT you can buy down during the actual casting by taking longer to cast the spell. For example, the spell Astral Walk has a -10 Casting Modifier, so no one with one or more raises and/or a very high skill dice can cast in 1-2 rounds, but if you spend 10 rounds, it the skill roll has no modifiers. Thoughts? Is there a better way to model this with what we currently have or would it make more sense to extend what currently exists. I have not thought to much about the details, but would the way Super Powers work in the current Hero Lab handle this since they don't have PP's but have some kind of negative casting modifier based upon the original PP cost? I have not played with it, so I don't know.

5) Spell Duration: this is not hard in any way, but it's extra work. Basically base spells have a much higher duration so every one would need to be re-written.

6) Arcane Backgrounds: three new ones, each with some different flavor stuff that would have to be dealt with and no existing core ones can be used:

Black Magic
Backlash earns "Corruption". At the end of each session player with any corruption points chooses one of the following:
a) physical corruption(roll on table for result), basically things like your skill scales over, or your eyes turn into snake irises, webbed fingers,etc(covers 1 point)
b) minor hindrance from specific list OR upgrade existing from list to major hindrance(covers 1 point)
c) major hindrance from different specific list from the above(covers 2 points)

This is an ongoing tracker and if you hit x corruption: new character and the GM takes over the newly jacked up one.

Elemental magic
Standard fare here, but you have to choose your type(new tag or what ever for the chooser?) You can take from your element, but you can also have some powers outside your element, but are limited in the number per rank. Limits on this would be a nice to have, but I don't think it's strictly required as the player should be able to know how many out of element powers(if any) vs their current rank.

White Magic
This one is a bit weird and I have no idea how to make this seem natural. Basically, you get a free "new power edge" per rank. I really like the idea here and was thinking for my personal campaign of this EXACT feature just a few hours before reading this in the book. Does anyone have any ideas of how to implement this? It seems like it would be very clunky.

I am sure there are other odd things I missed, but those are some of the highlights.

[zarlor]

Originally Posted by jfrazierjr

2) This is another source book with some extra stuff and choices for "humans" which at least in my mind would make a race tab and either racial ability/racial property(I can never remember which is the "use this from now own") with one or more selectable things which can then bootstrap stuff. Here is the example from the book(I have to write it manually, so hopefully I don't mistype:

Now, my initial reading of the above(last night) was:

free Edge AND ( (d6 any skill) OR (cultural package) )

but after further reading, I THINK it's supposed to be:

( (free edge) AND (d6 any skill) ) OR (cultural package)

Definitely the latter. The comma is the giveway separator for the sentence that breaks the two sections apart from each other so it's Edge+Skill OR Cultural Package.

Originally Posted by jfrazierjr

[snip] One possible issue with that is that any existing scripts anywhere which try to add to weapons typically seem to check the name field for comparison and would not find this "instance" because it may not have "Sword" or whatever else in the name anymore.

I think most of the weapon-based scripts actually look for tags instead (or they usually should, anyway) as the tags should be the defining grouping for weapons rather than just the name, but there probably are some scripts out there that do work on now maybe because it affects a specific weapon or type of weapon that always seems to have that word in the name? I can't think of one right now, mind you. The only other "gotcha" on that would be that, at least in some of my settings files, dual-purpose weapons end up as two entries, such as a spear, for example, can be purchased under either melee or thrown weapons and doing so bootstraps an otherwise hidden, no-cost, no-weight version of the other version of that weapon. So if the named weapon was one of those it might seem a bit odd, I guess.

Originally Posted by jfrazierjr

4) no PP for magic, but has Casting Modifier instead that would be nice to be able to add to the power(but we can't). In theory, IF PP could take a negative number and I assume it can, one could make copies of each power in the setting and put in the casting modifier in place of the PP cost. Basically, this is a modifier to the skill roll, BUT you can buy down during the actual casting by taking longer to cast the spell. For example, the spell Astral Walk has a -10 Casting Modifier, so no one with one or more raises and/or a very high skill dice can cast in 1-2 rounds, but if you spend 10 rounds, it the skill roll has no modifiers. Thoughts? Is there a better way to model this with what we currently have or would it make more sense to extend what currently exists. I have not thought to much about the details, but would the way Super Powers work in the current Hero Lab handle this since they don't have PP's but have some kind of negative casting modifier based upon the original PP cost? I have not played with it, so I don't know.

Honestly, that's the kind of thing I would have never bothered trying to code into a data file in the first place. There are just too many variables there, just like a normal No PP setting (Bolt has various casting modifiers depending on how you cast it, for example.) That's almost like trying to code in situational modifiers, like lighting conditions, cover or aimed shots. Not something you really code into Hero Lab at all. If it's coded anywhere it seems to me the place to do that would be in a VTT program.

Originally Posted by jfrazierjr

5) Spell Duration: this is not hard in any way, but it's extra work. Basically base spells have a much higher duration so every one would need to be re-written.

Not uncommon for many settings that might change a base spell, so yeah, probably just a lot of precludes and copy and past work there.

Originally Posted by jfrazierjr

6) Arcane Backgrounds: three new ones, each with some different flavor stuff that would have to be dealt with and no existing core ones can be used:

[snip]
White Magic
This one is a bit weird and I have no idea how to make this seem natural. Basically, you get a free "new power edge" per rank. I really like the idea here and was thinking for my personal campaign of this EXACT feature just a few hours before reading this in the book. Does anyone have any ideas of how to implement this? It seems like it would be very clunky.

I'd have to check some of the other rank-based things, but I seem to recall some code for handling that being out there, and in this case being a relatively easy implementation of just bootstraping the Edge.

So, largely, lots of copying and pasting to do for the setting. If that were done (hint, hint) then I'm sure at least one of us could take over doing all those fiddly coding bit.

[jfrazierjr]

Thanks for the replies! I have some more detailed replies, but honestly it's late and I need to go to bed.

As for the hint.... well... I have a physical copy, so no copy/paste for me unless I really feel inclined to also buy digital(sometimes I do, sometimes I don't). On the flip side the book is really really small... there are only 3 races a dozen or so Edges and Hindernaces and a dozen or two new powers, so other than copy/paste rename, it's not significant work for the general data entry part(I might have just talked myself into actually doing some/all of that...)

[jfrazierjr]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by zarlor

Definitely the latter. The comma is the giveway separator for the sentence that breaks the two sections apart from each other so it's Edge+Skill OR Cultural Package.



I think most of the weapon-based scripts actually look for tags instead (or they usually should, anyway) as the tags should be the defining grouping for weapons rather than just the name, but there probably are some scripts out there that do work on now maybe because it affects a specific weapon or type of weapon that always seems to have that word in the name? I can't think of one right now, mind you. The only other "gotcha" on that would be that, at least in some of my settings files, dual-purpose weapons end up as two entries, such as a spear, for example, can be purchased under either melee or thrown weapons and doing so bootstraps an otherwise hidden, no-cost, no-weight version of the other version of that weapon. So if the named weapon was one of those it might seem a bit odd, I guess.

I guess my thought process here is why should it be that much extra work to give a weapon a name? I know in fantasy novels and the games I ahve played in for 30+ years or so, people giving their weapons names has happened hundreds of times. Granted, in my more recent experience as a GM, I have taken the tack that found magical weapons ALREADY have a name, but that's something I have only recently started in my personal world. Anyway, this is not a big deal, but it's one of the tiny annoyances I have with HL and a nice to have the ability to assign a name to weapons.

I also noticed that when taking Trademark Weapon as my test case, it presented me with all weapons are listed(which is fine), but when taking Improved Trademark weapon, again, all weapons are listed. However, the latter should only show the list of weapons which have already been "assigned" trademark weapons status. Having the ability to set a name per item would allow that to be possible while it's not now.

Originally Posted by zarlor

Honestly, that's the kind of thing I would have never bothered trying to code into a data file in the first place. There are just too many variables there, just like a normal No PP setting (Bolt has various casting modifiers depending on how you cast it, for example.) That's almost like trying to code in situational modifiers, like lighting conditions, cover or aimed shots. Not something you really code into Hero Lab at all. If it's coded anywhere it seems to me the place to do that would be in a VTT program.

See this is one thing that bugs me about that thought proccess. When I use a character builder, the goal is to both make it easier to build and maintain a character as well as help during gameplay in some way. For the later, that means to me that all the meta information, things such as PP, name, duration, range, etc be clearly and quickly available to me via a print out or pdf on a tablet at the table. I am a bit less pedantic about full rule details as that level of copy/paste can then potentially run afoul of copyright laws, but the high level stuff should be in the editor in some way so that it can get output to the character sheet and not have to be constantly looked up.

Originally Posted by zarlor

I'd have to check some of the other rank-based things, but I seem to recall some code for handling that being out there, and in this case being a relatively easy implementation of just bootstraping the Edge.

If you can find an example of this in the existing game files(or one you can send if it's not in the downloader), please let me know. As I mentioned this seemed like a hard one to handle and I was thinking vaguely of doing something like this in my personal game just a few hows before reading it in the Lankmar source book(though it's still a thought and not an absolute going to do). My end goal is to try to not add things to my personal game unless they can be modeled in HeroLab AND modeled in a way that does not seem clunky to my players.

From technical level, I have the personal expertise to rebuild Savage Worlds
from the Authoring Kit exactly the way I want it to be(with some guidance on how to accomplish certain tasks of course). But the primary issue is with time. I am still waffling on the decision if the "get it my way" is worth the huge time investment. Heck, I know enough programming languages that I could build a character builder from scratch for any specific game system, but that's even MORE time vs me extending Hero Lab via the Authoring Kit. I know for a fact I won't do the latter not only because of the actual programming time commitment, but also the data entry time which is humongous and would be a one game system thing.

[zarlor]

Originally Posted by jfrazierjr

I guess my thought process here is why should it be that much extra work to give a weapon a name?[snip]

Maybe it would be easier if HL just added a custom text field? Rather like a Trappings field for Powers?

Originally Posted by jfrazierjr

See this is one thing that bugs me about that thought proccess. When I use a character builder, the goal is to both make it easier to build and maintain a character as well as help during gameplay in some way. For the later, that means to me that all the meta information, things such as PP, name, duration, range, etc be clearly and quickly available to me via a print out or pdf on a tablet at the table. I am a bit less pedantic about full rule details as that level of copy/paste can then potentially run afoul of copyright laws, but the high level stuff should be in the editor in some way so that it can get output to the character sheet and not have to be constantly looked up.

I both agree and disagree here. I modified the base character sheet output to include full descriptions instead of summaries for that very reason, but I definitely do not expect a character builder to handle situational modifiers. A VTT program, sure, but not a character builder. However, maybe this is another situation where having an available text field, again like trappings for powers, might be useful if you wanted to jot down all the situational modifiers that could potentially apply. That's just my take, though, and may just reflect how much time I would bother with when making a data file personally.

Originally Posted by jfrazierjr

If you can find an example of this in the existing game files(or one you can send if it's not in the downloader), please let me know. As I mentioned this seemed like a hard one to handle and I was thinking vaguely of doing something like this in my personal game just a few hows before reading it in the Lankmar source book(though it's still a thought and not an absolute going to do). My end goal is to try to not add things to my personal game unless they can be modeled in HeroLab AND modeled in a way that does not seem clunky to my players.

What about this from the Common Code Examples thread?

For adding a bonus to a trait based on Rank.

Eval Script: Pre-Traits/5000

var bonus as number
bonus = herofield[acRank].value + 1
perform #traitadjust[trCommand,+,bonus,"Valhalla Graduate"]

CapedCrusader has noted of this: "For NPC's though, since we don't know what Rank they are until everything is bought, and it can change every time something on the character changes, it has to be populated much later. So, be aware that using the acRank value can be somewhat unpredictable with NPC's."

Obviously that is for bumping up a bonus to a trait, but potentially could be used to add a free Edge then bootstrap that edge. Not sure if you'd have to then trap for each Rank to make sure you are only apply that one Edge at each Rank. I'd have to play with that, though.

As for technical expertise to do these things... well, plenty of folks here have more of that than I do. And time, and inclination, is always a bit of an issue for me was well. Still, if someone takes care of a lot of the copy and paste work (especially for Pinnacle produced stuff, since LWD has an agreement with them already in place, so a lot less worries acout copyright issues if we give the files to LWD to put into the official updater) then I'm more likely to put in the little bit of extra time to do some coding work to finish out a file than I am to just do the file on my own for a setting I'm not otherwise working with for you own gaming group.

[jfrazierjr]

Originally Posted by zarlor

Maybe it would be easier if HL just added a custom text field? Rather like a Trappings field for Powers?

Yea, that was kind of alone the lines of what I was thinking would be how "I would do it if I were to build Savage Worlds worlds from scratch using the Authoring Kit". As I said earlier, this really is a tiny thing in the grand scope of things important to me, but if it happened to be something very easy to change for CC in the base system(which the more I think about it, the more I think the screen UI and output sheets would be the major PITA parts vs updated the actual gear "object") would be nice. This is in no way critical, just a "in a perfect world", but the more I think about it, the more I think this might be a decent amount of work.

Originally Posted by zarlor

I both agree and disagree here. I modified the base character sheet output to include full descriptions instead of summaries for that very reason, but I definitely do not expect a character builder to handle situational modifiers. A VTT program, sure, but not a character builder. However, maybe this is another situation where having an available text field, again like trappings for powers, might be useful if you wanted to jot down all the situational modifiers that could potentially apply. That's just my take, though, and may just reflect how much time I would bother with when making a data file personally.

Perhaps I explained it wrong. It's not really so much situational modifiers, though they could be. It's really similar to how the Super Powers companion says that the base skill modifier is half of the power point cost. I agree that the in game play nature of the values changing depending on circumstance (such as short, medium, long range showing on the "meta" summary) would be crazy to try to put into Hero Lab. My point was more the BASE. In the source book, there is a big giant table that shows the base cost for the modifier for each power jsut as the core rule book has a PP for each power. I think that as long as the existing PP field can take a negative number(and I expect it can), then the simple solution is to use that field for the base cost.

Originally Posted by zarlor

What about this from the Common Code Examples thread?



Obviously that is for bumping up a bonus to a trait, but potentially could be used to add a free Edge then bootstrap that edge. Not sure if you'd have to then trap for each Rank to make sure you are only apply that one Edge at each Rank. I'd have to play with that, though.

Thanks for that.. I honestly never thought to even consider checking that thread for this specific use case(though I have looked at it many times in the past!) as I figured it would be either extremely convoluted to implement or impossible. That looks quite easy though.

Originally Posted by zarlor

As for technical expertise to do these things... well, plenty of folks here have more of that than I do. And time, and inclination, is always a bit of an issue for me was well. Still, if someone takes care of a lot of the copy and paste work (especially for Pinnacle produced stuff, since LWD has an agreement with them already in place, so a lot less worries acout copyright issues if we give the files to LWD to put into the official updater) then I'm more likely to put in the little bit of extra time to do some coding work to finish out a file than I am to just do the file on my own for a setting I'm not otherwise working with for you own gaming group.

Yea, i am considering starting on Lankhmar. As I mentioned, it's really really small in terms of overall content. IIRC, the players section is perhaps 39 pages long and that includes some introductory pages to the setting and some of the setting rules which won't be coded up anyway. I have not done a line by line comparison, but i doubt that the gear is different than base other than prices and that part might not matter that much or can be saved for last.