BUg: Range modifiers on character sheet

[Duggan]

Actually, with one rank of each, you should have a range increment of 7*25=175 ft and a maximum range of 70*25 = 1750 ft (allowing for 10 range increments again). The two feats don't interact. ^_^ Which is good, really, since it would probably be a pain to set up the interactions if they did.

Try this on for size.

[Duggan]

It probably should not be allowed if one also has the reduced range drawback, but that's a bit beyond me at this point. Probably some way of making each unavailable if the other is present...

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

Originally Posted by Duggan

Actually, with one rank of each, you should have a range increment of 7*25=175 ft and a maximum range of 70*25 = 1750 ft (allowing for 10 range increments again). The two feats don't interact. ^_^ Which is good, really, since it would probably be a pain to set up the interactions if they did.

Try this on for size.

**Scratching head** one level of Improved Range is x2 on the Time/Range Chart. So it should be rank (7) x 10 feet x 2 = 140 feet for the Range Increment or have I missed an Errata somewhere?

Two levels of I.R. would make it 7 x 10 x 5 = 350 ft Rng Incr.

Now, that would normally give 3,500 ft as max range and if you add a level of Progression, Increased Range that kicks the max range up to 7,000 feet and if it had been two levels of Prog, Incr Rng the max range would've been 17,500 ft.

So the two power feats do interact as one handles the basic unit of measurement called Range Increment and the other power feat (Progression, Increased Range) is a multiplier to the normal max range one gets. In other words.....it's P,IR value of 2 or 5 or 10 or 25 or 50, etc. x (Range Increment x 10)

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer

P.S., as I'm noted elsewhere and Colen has already corrected in the software, the Power Drawback: Reduced Range (in UP, per the Errata) doesn't adjust the number of Range Increments anymore. It adjusts the multiplier which you use to get maximum range. Instead of the normal power rank x 100, for -1 pt max range is power rank x 50 and for -2 pts the max range is power rank x 25. So, in my humble opinion, I agree that the Power Drawback: Reduced Range shouldn't be allowed on the same power that has the Power Feat: Progress, Increased Range and probably also not on a power that has the Power Feat: Improved Range. lol Definitely not on a power that has both of those Power Feats. :-)

[Duggan]

Ah, but it's the 10 that you're increasing on the time and value chart, which goes from 10 to 25.

And, as per Ultimate Power page 13, increasing your range increment does not increase your maximum range. If you only take 1 ranks of Improved range and none of progression, you'd have Blast 7 [Improved Range (range increment 175 ft)] with maximum range (7*10*10 = 700 ft), and only 4 range increments. Add one rank of progression on there and your range increment is still 175 ft, but your maximum range becomes 7*10*25 = 1750 ft and you again have 10 range increments. If you only had Progression (Range), you'd have the standard range increment of 70 ft with a maximum range of 1750 ft and you'd have 25 range increments (although, at -2 per increment, your odds of hitting anything become really slim after 15 or so).

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

Originally Posted by Duggan

Ah, but it's the 10 that you're increasing on the time and value chart, which goes from 10 to 25.

And, as per Ultimate Power page 13, increasing your range increment does not increase your maximum range. If you only take 1 ranks of Improved range and none of progression, you'd have Blast 7 [Improved Range (range increment 175 ft)] with maximum range (7*10*10 = 700 ft), and only 4 range increments. Add one rank of progression on there and your range increment is still 175 ft, but your maximum range becomes 7*10*25 = 1750 ft and you again have 10 range increments. If you only had Progression (Range), you'd have the standard range increment of 70 ft with a maximum range of 1750 ft and you'd have 25 range increments (although, at -2 per increment, your odds of hitting anything become really slim after 15 or so).

Completely agree that PF: Improved Range only affects the Range Increment. Never thought about it making the x10 into x25 for these Power Feat....I assumed you started at x1 on the Time and Value Chart as additional multiplier one layered onto the base formulas for distances.

Nigel Fogg, aka the Wayfarer

[Colen]

I'm reading the above thread and my head is spinning. Can someone summarize the discussion for a poor programmer here?

[Duggan]

Ah. Basically, the confusion is over the fact that the powers list a "range" at the front of the power that's basically the first range increment (rank x 10 ft). Adding improved range shows the change in increment in the feat, but doesn't affect that first value. Adding Progression, Increase Range doubles that first value.

So, the following output is seen for Blast 10:
No Feats
Blast 10: Range 100ft, DC 25

Improved Range
Blast 10: Range 100 ft., DC 25, Improved Range (250 ft increment)

Progression (range)
Blast 10: Range 200ft, DC 25, Progression, Increase Range (max range x2)

Both feats
Blast 10: Range 200 ft., DC 25, Improved Range (250 ft increment), Progression, Increase Range (max range x2)

That first range is either meant to be the range increment, in which case it's updating with the wrong feat, or the maximum range, in which case it needs to be multiplied by 10, or 25 when the Progression, Increase Range feat is taken once. Going from 10 to 25 can be seen in UP on page 13, FWIW.

The .user file I posted doesn't fix that first value, but it adds a maximum range to the feat. That will give you a formula to paste in whether you added it to the feat, or make that first "range" listed be the maximum range.

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

Originally Posted by Duggan

Ah. Basically, the confusion is over the fact that the powers list a "range" at the front of the power that's basically the first range increment (rank x 10 ft). Adding improved range shows the change in increment in the feat, but doesn't affect that first value. Adding Progression, Increase Range doubles that first value.

So, the following output is seen for Blast 10:
No Feats
Blast 10: Range 100ft, DC 25

Improved Range
Blast 10: Range 100 ft., DC 25, Improved Range (250 ft increment)

Progression (range)
Blast 10: Range 200ft, DC 25, Progression, Increase Range (max range x2)

Both feats
Blast 10: Range 200 ft., DC 25, Improved Range (250 ft increment), Progression, Increase Range (max range x2)

That first range is either meant to be the range increment, in which case it's updating with the wrong feat, or the maximum range, in which case it needs to be multiplied by 10, or 25 when the Progression, Increase Range feat is taken once. Going from 10 to 25 can be seen in UP on page 13, FWIW.

The .user file I posted doesn't fix that first value, but it adds a maximum range to the feat. That will give you a formula to paste in whether you added it to the feat, or make that first "range" listed be the maximum range.

Almost perfect Duggan.

You are right that I'm not sure if the sheet display of "range x feet" is supposed to be the range increment or the max range.

However, max range should be, per page 69 of M&M: "...and a maximum range of 10 increments..." so I'm not clear on where the Prog, Improve Range (max range x 2) comes in or what exactly it means. lol

Happy Fourth of July everyone.

[Duggan]

Originally Posted by Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer

However, max range should be, per page 69 of M&M: "...and a maximum range of 10 increments..." so I'm not clear on where the Prog, Improve Range (max range x 2) comes in or what exactly it means.

{nods} Progression increases the number of increments. According to UP, it does so from 10 to 25 (one application) to 50 (two applications) and so on. Currently, the feat in Hero Lab simply goes up the time and value chart, going from to (max range x 2) to (max range x 5) and so one. The first step should actually be x2.5 (going from 10 to 25) and it would be nice to actually have numbers for the maximum range, as is done for the range increments.

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

Originally Posted by Duggan

{nods} Progression increases the number of increments. According to UP, it does so from 10 to 25 (one application) to 50 (two applications) and so on. Currently, the feat in Hero Lab simply goes up the time and value chart, going from to (max range x 2) to (max range x 5) and so one. The first step should actually be x2.5 (going from 10 to 25) and it would be nice to actually have numbers for the maximum range, as is done for the range increments.

Absolutely agree about the idea of needing both values to appear and I repeat my earlier suggestion that onscreen & on the printed sheet it should appear one time in the power's description. For example, a regular, no frills, Rank 10 Blast would have it appear like this: (Standard (Active) - Range Incr 100ft - Max Range 1,000 ft - Instant).

However, you are slightly off Duggan in your comment: the PF: Improved Range (UP, page 94 - left column) affects the range increment.

PF: Progression, Increase Range changes the max range from the normal (Rank x 100) to (Rank x 250) or (Rank x 500), etc. depending on how much Progression is bought.

Anyway, the written output should reflect the values generated by the Power Drawback: Reduced Range or either Power Feat affecting the correct thing (increment or max range) & the text of PF: Improved Range (UP, page 94 last sentence) indicates to me that there ISN'T a synergy of both PFs being on the same power. Each PF is an independent modifier to the increment and the maximum. Naturally I think the Power Drawback: Reduced Range should be mutually exclusive with the PF: Improved Range (UP, page 94) as both deal with the range increment.

For example, a Rank 10 Blast with PF: Improved Range 3 and PF: Prog, Increased Range 1 would have it appear like this: (Standard (Active) - Range Incr 1,000ft - Max Range 2,500 ft - Instant). Yes, I am aware this particular combination means you'd only be getting far less than the normal 10 range increments.

Conversly, a Rank 10 Blast with PF: Improved Range 2 and PF: Prog, Increased Range 4 would have it appear like this: (Standard (Active) - Range Incr 500ft - Max Range 25,000 ft - Instant) which is way more than 10 range increments. Lotsa luck hitting anything at Max Range though with all those culmulative -2 modifiers per range increment. ;-P

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer